MyWiki:WikiProject Highways/Internet Relay Chat/Logs/2007-04-27
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(9:01:40 PM) Rschen7754!n=rschen77@(hostname removed): Rschen7754 has changed the topic to: Welcome to U.S. Roads IRC meeting | This meeting is logged | Agenda: 1) county routes 2) cleanups
(9:01:49 PM) Master_son: County Routes
(9:01:56 PM) Northenglish: sweet
(9:02:01 PM) You are now known as vishwin60
(9:02:09 PM) Mitchazenia: well this is the one I came for
(9:02:29 PM) Northenglish: Consensus on WT:USRD seems to be that they're not worthy of individual articles (for the most part).
(9:02:31 PM) Rschen7754!n=rschen77@(hostname removed): Rschen7754 has changed the topic to: Welcome to U.S. Roads IRC meeting | This meeting is logged | Agenda: 1) county routes 2) cleanups 3) overstandardization 4) AID 5) news;etter
(9:02:46 PM) Rschen7754: i would disagree
(9:02:51 PM) Polaron: would it be useful to write up our own article inclusion guidelines?
(9:02:51 PM) Rschen7754: we have NYCR,. CACR...
(9:03:02 PM) Rschen7754: polaron: possibly
(9:03:08 PM) Polaron: similar to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28music%29
(9:03:13 PM) Rschen7754: then we can point to it and then if theres an AFD they cant say anything
(9:03:17 PM) TwinsMetsFan: i agree with the consensus on WT:USRD
(9:03:20 PM) Northenglish: just because we have WikiProjects for them doesn't mean they're automatically notable.
(9:03:27 PM) TwinsMetsFan: agreed
(9:03:40 PM) Northenglish: They certainly can say something if they disagree with the guideline.
(9:03:44 PM) JohnnyAlbert10 [n=Compaq_O@(hostname removed)] entered the room.
(9:03:44 PM) #wikipedia-en-roads-us: mode (+v JohnnyAlbert10 ) by ChanServ
(9:03:49 PM) vishwin60: hello
(9:03:52 PM) Master_son: my experience with them is WI - I have one article talking about them as a whole (no individual articles) MO has a single article on secondary (supplemental) routes. MN and IA have no articles (and one user would rather not see them happen for MN)
(9:03:59 PM) TwinsMetsFan: NYCR...i dunno if it should exist, really
(9:04:04 PM) ***Northenglish just came from a rather nasty AfD brought about because WP:BIO is too vague.
(9:04:09 PM) TwinsMetsFan: NY's county system is not statewide
(9:04:21 PM) Rschen7754: CACR is notable
(9:04:25 PM) vishwin60: WY's county system is statewide
(9:04:29 PM) Polaron: for NY I think one per county system is useful
(9:04:31 PM) Rschen7754: then what about TX farm-market etc.?
(9:04:32 PM) Northenglish: As NE2 said, I think California's and NJ's 500-series are exceptions.
(9:04:37 PM) Master_son: CA has selected counties right?
(9:04:40 PM) Polaron: plus individual exceptional routes
(9:04:44 PM) SPUI: oh meeting time
(9:04:47 PM) Northenglish: they're statewide systems
(9:04:48 PM) TwinsMetsFan: NY should have only certain roads
(9:04:55 PM) Mitchazenia: NJs based more with county routes than state routes,
(9:04:55 PM) vishwin60: same with WY
(9:04:56 PM) Rschen7754: CA usually has 1 route per county at least
(9:04:57 PM) Northenglish: as are TX's farm to market roads
(9:05:00 PM) TwinsMetsFan: ones where something can actually be said
(9:05:12 PM) Northenglish: essentially state secondary highways.
(9:05:24 PM) SPUI: farm to market roads might not all be good for articles
(9:05:26 PM) vishwin60: MO's SSRs come to mind
(9:05:38 PM) Master_son: One article for all MO SSRs
(9:05:44 PM) Master_son: that is what we have right now
(9:05:45 PM) vishwin60: hmm, probably not
(9:05:47 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: but about PA quadrants?
(9:05:47 PM) Master_son: and its not that long
(9:05:51 PM) SPUI: many states have a secondary system - MO, VA, NC, TX, PA
(9:05:59 PM) Master_son: MT
(9:06:02 PM) vishwin60: some of MO's SSRs can be in their own articles
(9:06:04 PM) SPUI: I think those should be treated like county routes
(9:06:11 PM) SPUI: write in article if it's major
(9:06:12 PM) vishwin60: like MO SSR D in St. Louis
(9:06:13 PM) SPUI: an*
(9:06:13 PM) TwinsMetsFan: JA10: PA quadrants are the same as NY county routes in my mind
(9:06:25 PM) TwinsMetsFan: if something can actually be said, than write an article
(9:06:25 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: right
(9:06:31 PM) vishwin60: PA quadrants designate arterials
(9:06:34 PM) Master_son: I haven't seen a county route that was significant in my experience
(9:06:34 PM) Polaron: of course any freeway or mostly freeway county routes probably deserve their own article
(9:06:36 PM) Northenglish: but only if something can actually be said.
(9:06:40 PM) vishwin60: yes
(9:06:50 PM) SPUI: freeways are probably always significant
(9:06:52 PM) Master_son: there really is much more than a handful of them in every state
(9:06:59 PM) Master_son: freeways maybe
(9:07:00 PM) vishwin60: freeways are always notable
(9:07:01 PM) Northenglish: no probably about it SPUI ;-)
(9:07:20 PM) SPUI: florida is kind of weird - most county routes were once secondary state routes
(9:07:24 PM) Master_son: how bout major streets in a city?
(9:07:32 PM) SPUI: and many of them really aren't very major
(9:07:34 PM) SPUI: but others are
(9:07:40 PM) SPUI: and were probably once primary
(9:07:41 PM) Master_son: such as those in Milwaukee (some have CR letters on them)
(9:07:50 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: streets are like county routes depending on the street
(9:07:58 PM) vishwin60: Market Street in Philadelphia is probably notable
(9:08:00 PM) SPUI: dude there is no firm line
(9:08:02 PM) Master_son: otherwise in WI county routes don't go into cities
(9:08:14 PM) SPUI: if you can write a decent article on it, do so
(9:08:20 PM) Northenglish: I agree with SPUI, re: no firm line.
(9:08:30 PM) TwinsMetsFan: county routes that were once state highways should be notable
(9:08:30 PM) vishwin60: yep, I also agree
(9:08:30 PM) Northenglish: The key word is *decent*.
(9:08:30 PM) SPUI: if you can only write "CR 696 goes from US 130 to the County Workhouse", don't
(9:08:35 PM) Northenglish: I.e. not stub.
(9:08:38 PM) Northenglish: lol
(9:08:42 PM) vishwin60: lol
(9:08:51 PM) SPUI: TwinsMetsFan, unless they were once secondary state highways
(9:08:54 PM) Master_son: That's a very good point SPUI
(9:09:07 PM) SPUI: that actually is a route in Middlesex County, NJ
(9:09:14 PM) TwinsMetsFan: SPUI: i'm referring to signed highways
(9:09:18 PM) Northenglish: That's what? 0.19 miles long?
(9:09:19 PM) vishwin60: wait, what about CT's State Roads?
(9:09:27 PM) vishwin60: nm
(9:09:33 PM) Master_son: I've seen state hwys shorter than that :?
(9:09:39 PM) Polaron: mostly can be merged to related signed route
(9:09:47 PM) vishwin60: VT F-5 is pretty short
(9:09:49 PM) TwinsMetsFan: my focus is on roads like ex-NY 339
(9:09:50 PM) SPUI: a special unsigned system is probably "secondary" as well
(9:09:51 PM) Mitchazenia: what about state routes that become county routes (ie [[New York State Route 149]])
(9:10:01 PM) SPUI: Mitchazenia, those are former primary state routes
(9:10:03 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: hmm
(9:10:05 PM) Northenglish: So... are we lumping state secondaries in with this?
(9:10:06 PM) Polaron: a few CT SRs are notable though
(9:10:14 PM) vishwin60: SR 695, I guess
(9:10:20 PM) TwinsMetsFan: state secs are the same level IMO
(9:10:22 PM) SPUI: state secondaries should probably be lumped in
(9:10:23 PM) TwinsMetsFan: so yes
(9:10:30 PM) SPUI: including florida's S- routes
(9:10:35 PM) SPUI: eliminated in the 1980s
(9:10:38 PM) Mitchazenia: SPUI, i mean 149 ends and becomes Warren County 23
(9:10:48 PM) TwinsMetsFan: we should also cover NY reference routes
(9:10:54 PM) vishwin60: agreed
(9:10:58 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: yup
(9:10:58 PM) TwinsMetsFan: there's a lot of crap articles written for those
(9:11:05 PM) Northenglish: But then what about NJ's 500-series?
(9:11:08 PM) SPUI: unless they're so minor that you can't write anything
(9:11:24 PM) SPUI: 500-series is more limited than most secondary systems
(9:11:28 PM) TwinsMetsFan: i'll find one that embodies that
(9:11:32 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: i feel like NJ county routes are like state routes
(9:11:38 PM) Master_son: Something to think about - many states have many many CRs. (WI, MN, IA come to mind) and they usually would have a pattern (such as IA and a coord system) At least an article on the system (or maybe a section on the state highway article/list) and mention some you think are notable there. If you have enough info - valid info - on a route to take it past stub level - write one, otherwise - don't bother.
(9:11:39 PM) SPUI: under 100 in the whole state
(9:11:55 PM) Northenglish: JohnnyAlbert10: If you're limiting that to 500-series, I agree.
(9:11:58 PM) vishwin60: IN's CR system is statewide as well
(9:12:23 PM) vishwin60: except that they're unsigned and are designated, i.e. 500 East
(9:12:35 PM) SPUI: if the secondary system duplicates numbers between counties, it's like a county system
(9:12:43 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: NJ dont have many state routes so the CR are like the state routes
(9:12:51 PM) TwinsMetsFan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_910C - we shouldn't have articles like this
(9:12:53 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: 500 series that is
(9:12:56 PM) TwinsMetsFan: not for 0.06 miles
(9:13:01 PM) Polaron: haha
(9:13:06 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: lol
(9:13:07 PM) Master_son: thats overkill
(9:13:15 PM) SPUI: TwinsMetsFan, merge to Menands?
(9:13:16 PM) vishwin60: prod, maybe?
(9:13:19 PM) Northenglish: Regarding SPUI's "firm line", I think we do have to draw a line... not between the notable and non-notable... but between an automatically notable state highway and another highway that may or may not be.
(9:13:27 PM) Polaron: that should be merged with NY 32
(9:13:31 PM) Northenglish: (did that make sense?)
(9:13:36 PM) SPUI: yeah, that makes sense
(9:13:37 PM) TwinsMetsFan: agree with Polaron
(9:13:40 PM) Rschen7754: ya, merge it somewhere
(9:13:44 PM) Mitchazenia: what about something like 7 Lakes Drive? That road is pretty notable
(9:13:48 PM) SPUI: probably work it out by state
(9:13:53 PM) Master_son: where's that?
(9:13:57 PM) Polaron: NY
(9:14:08 PM) SPUI: Mitchazenia: <SPUI> if you can write a decent article on it, do so
(9:14:09 PM) Master_son: I wouldn't have known about it
(9:14:23 PM) SPUI: I'm not sure if I agree with your definition of "decent article" though...
(9:14:27 PM) vishwin60: Elkhart CR 17 in IN is notable
(9:14:34 PM) Northenglish: I think "parkway routes" are somewhat automatically notable... things that are strictly "reference routes" are not.
(9:14:40 PM) TwinsMetsFan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_912C - another
(9:14:41 PM) Polaron: yup: we should come out with a guideline about which highways are automatically notable, which ones are not, and of those not automatically notable, what makes one notable
(9:14:49 PM) Northenglish: Thus Seven Lakes Drive would be.
(9:14:49 PM) vishwin60: agreed
(9:14:53 PM) Rschen7754: state by state?
(9:15:07 PM) vishwin60: Elkhart CR 17 would be notable as it's the only signed CR in IN
(9:15:08 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: parkways r very notables, some are freeways
(9:15:09 PM) Northenglish: I'd prefer not state by state, if there's a way to do so.
(9:15:33 PM) SPUI: we should have a page listing the standard for each state
(9:15:42 PM) TwinsMetsFan: how about this: statewide systems are fine, ones that aren't - use discretion?
(9:15:43 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: agreed
(9:15:43 PM) SPUI: first list the states for which all state highways are fine
(9:15:46 PM) SPUI: then list the exceptions
(9:16:03 PM) Master_son: ok, I'm confused
(9:16:43 PM) Northenglish: care to elaborate, Master_son? I'm sure a number of us didn't follow that, since there were about three conversations at once. :)
(9:16:49 PM) vishwin60: yeah
(9:16:49 PM) Rschen7754: SPUI: state highways? or just county routes?
(9:17:01 PM) Master_son: What Rschen said
(9:17:14 PM) SPUI: just a general page "per state, these routes should have articles"
(9:17:22 PM) SPUI: county routes can be included
(9:17:24 PM) Northenglish: I think SPUI meant state highways... since we're now talking about Reference Routes, secondary highways, etc.
(9:17:31 PM) SPUI: like in NJ, state highways and 5xx
(9:17:43 PM) Master_son: Makes sense to me.
(9:17:43 PM) Rschen7754: i.e.
(9:18:06 PM) Rschen7754: ok...
(9:18:14 PM) Rschen7754: we all agreed?
(9:18:22 PM) Northenglish: lol... with what?
(9:18:29 PM) Master_son: what North said
(9:18:29 PM) SPUI: of course exceptions work in both directions - if the state assigns a number to the state house driveway, it probably doesn't need its own article
(9:18:38 PM) Master_son: lol
(9:18:45 PM) vishwin60: lol
(9:18:48 PM) Master_son: that's how far some states will take it LOL
(9:18:52 PM) SPUI: I think there's one in texas that's a cemetery
(9:18:57 PM) SPUI: it's a primary route too
(9:18:59 PM) Master_son: how bout the governor's driveway
(9:19:03 PM) Master_son: ;)
(9:19:12 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: uhhh
(9:19:14 PM) Northenglish: A lot of the Mississippi "reference routes" are like that.
(9:19:49 PM) SPUI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_State_Highway_165 - though it is a decent article
(9:20:10 PM) Rschen7754: with creating a guideline page and putting the notable routes on there
(9:20:17 PM) Master_son: in WI - each state highway (STH) has its own article. WI County routes, Rustic Roads (a tour route), have artilces on the system, and Bannered routes (which I don't see having their own articles) are on a list
(9:20:42 PM) SPUI: ooh, bannered routes is another issue
(9:20:42 PM) Northenglish: [[Wikipedia:Notability (numbered highways)]] ?
(9:20:57 PM) SPUI: I see them as similar to suffixed routes
(9:21:08 PM) Northenglish: If enough can be said, go for it; otherwise merge them into the parent route.
(9:21:13 PM) Master_son: WI bannered are pretty much all Business routes
(9:21:19 PM) Master_son: just through cities
(9:21:26 PM) TwinsMetsFan: SPUI, not sure i agree with that, at least not in NY
(9:21:29 PM) Master_son: and only three of them are state funded
(9:21:29 PM) SPUI: some states use an A suffix for business routes
(9:21:34 PM) Master_son: not WI
(9:21:36 PM) SPUI: NY had 1A and 9A
(9:21:44 PM) Northenglish: Agree with TMF... certainly the case elsewhere, but not in NY.
(9:21:44 PM) SPUI: which became US 1/9 Business in NJ
(9:22:04 PM) Northenglish: I disagree... they just happened to be the first suffixed routes.
(9:22:07 PM) TwinsMetsFan: i know NY 31F is much more important than some business route
(9:22:11 PM) Northenglish: Followed by 9B, 9C, 9D, etc.
(9:22:25 PM) Master_son: TMF and Northenglish have a point there
(9:22:34 PM) vishwin60: I agree with both of them
(9:22:45 PM) Northenglish: If they were meant to be equivalent to bannered routes, they at least would have been US 1A / US 9A.
(9:22:59 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: agreed
(9:23:03 PM) SPUI: according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_9B it was formed in 1929
(9:23:06 PM) Northenglish: actually, strike that... RI 9A
(9:23:07 PM) SPUI: 9A is from 1934
(9:23:08 PM) Master_son: I really cannot see short through city surface roads (business routes) being notable enough for their own articles
(9:23:31 PM) Master_son: maybe a mention on the parent route's article and that's it.
(9:23:41 PM) SPUI: but if they change the number from US X Business to SR foo, it is fine?
(9:23:54 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: but about truck routes?
(9:24:01 PM) Northenglish: Regardless, how are you going to draw the line between 9A is a bannered route, but 9N is not?
(9:24:02 PM) SPUI: oh never mind, 9A went north from NYC
(9:24:05 PM) Master_son: most business routes in WI get changed to County routes
(9:24:24 PM) SPUI: Northenglish, I'm arguing in the other direction - that bannered routes may be fine
(9:24:30 PM) SPUI: but it probably does depend on the state
(9:24:36 PM) Northenglish: Agreed.
(9:24:43 PM) Northenglish: Not even the state, just the route.
(9:25:03 PM) SPUI: yes, since there's an easy merge target
(9:25:06 PM) Northenglish: Basically, same thing as county routes, LOL.
(9:25:08 PM) Master_son: On the other hand - Business I-40 or Business I-85 in NC or Business I-80 in CA - those are different - and notable
(9:25:13 PM) Northenglish: Yes.
(9:25:22 PM) SPUI: US 1/9 Truck
(9:25:23 PM) Master_son: they're freeways
(9:25:23 PM) Master_son: and
(9:25:32 PM) Northenglish: If they're notable, they are, and if they're not, they're not.
(9:25:41 PM) Polaron: sounds logical :)
(9:25:42 PM) Master_son: B-I-80 in CA has quite a history behind it too
(9:25:47 PM) Master_son: ROFL
(9:25:57 PM) SPUI: again with the "if you can write a decent article, do so"
(9:26:06 PM) Northenglish: right... that's what I was saying.
(9:26:15 PM) Northenglish: And what I've been saying for quite some time.
(9:26:19 PM) ***Northenglish searches for diff.
(9:26:24 PM) Master_son: North and Polaron - thanks for the quotes lol
(9:26:46 PM) SPUI: and really, that also applies to primary state routes - if all you can write is a single sentence, merge it somewhere
(9:27:03 PM) Northenglish: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_New_Jersey_State_and_County_Routes&oldid=61288975
(9:27:16 PM) Northenglish: End of What to include? section... dated June 30, 2006.
(9:27:21 PM) Polaron: I know of a couple of those in CT where there's not much to write about
(9:27:24 PM) Northenglish: Not to brag or anything, but...
(9:27:26 PM) Northenglish: ;)
(9:27:39 PM) Master_son: too late :P
(9:27:43 PM) Northenglish: lol
(9:27:48 PM) Northenglish: I know... sorry. :)
(9:28:35 PM) Northenglish: So umm... I think *now* we can ask if we're agreed...
(9:28:40 PM) Northenglish: Are we?
(9:29:16 PM) SPUI: agreed that primary unbannered routes are almost always fine; secondary and county routes depend on the state and usually the route
(9:29:22 PM) Polaron: are CA and NJ the only count route systems that are "automatically notable"?
(9:29:37 PM) Master_son: nothing's automatically notable IMHO
(9:29:49 PM) SPUI: "automatically probably fine"
(9:29:56 PM) SPUI: yes, I think CA and NJ are the only ones
(9:30:06 PM) Northenglish: And NJ 500-series only.
(9:30:08 PM) SPUI: maybe HI, since all of those are former state highways
(9:30:14 PM) SPUI: but that's a different reason
(9:30:15 PM) vishwin60: hmm
(9:30:23 PM) Master_son: hmm
(9:30:25 PM) SPUI: hmm
(9:30:28 PM) vishwin60: lol
(9:30:31 PM) Rschen7754: hmm
(9:30:35 PM) Master_son: ROFL
(9:30:39 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: hmm
(9:30:41 PM) Northenglish: I would have joined in, but I made a typo.
(9:30:43 PM) vishwin60: lol
(9:30:57 PM) Northenglish: Stupid Y key.
(9:31:13 PM) Master_son: ymmm
(9:31:28 PM) Northenglish: actually, it was more like, hymmm.
(9:31:34 PM) Master_son: got it
(9:31:41 PM) Master_son: you singing again?
(9:31:43 PM) Rschen7754: anyway, moving on
(9:32:02 PM) vishwin60: cleanups
(9:32:04 PM) Northenglish: moving on with the assumption that there's agreement?
(9:32:15 PM) Polaron: so no article for CT SR911 :-)
(9:32:16 PM) vishwin60: Rschen7754?
(9:32:21 PM) Rschen7754: ya
(9:32:31 PM) SPUI: even kurumi doesn't have separate "articles" for most unsigned routes
(9:32:37 PM) Northenglish: lol
(9:32:40 PM) vishwin60: <@Northenglish> moving on with the assumption that there's agreement?
(9:32:42 PM) Northenglish: well there you go.
(9:32:53 PM) Master_son: his signmaker probably can't handle that route :P
(9:33:07 PM) Polaron: well SR911 is sort of signed
(9:33:14 PM) Master_son: there
(9:33:16 PM) Polaron: on I-84 not on the route
(9:33:20 PM) SPUI: what, the emergency 911 signs?
(9:33:21 PM) Master_son: oh
(9:33:26 PM) Master_son: ROFLMAO
(9:33:31 PM) Polaron: on the overpass
(9:33:37 PM) SPUI: oh, that doesn't count
(9:33:57 PM) Master_son: no, the markings on the road itself ;)
(9:34:13 PM) Northenglish: eh, heck... let's move on...
(9:34:13 PM) Master_son: Cleanup
(9:34:24 PM) Master_son: Are we the *only* wikiproject set to have these specifics?
(9:34:35 PM) Rschen7754!n=rschen77@(hostname removed): Rschen7754 has changed the topic to: Welcome to U.S. Roads IRC meeting | This meeting is logged | Agenda: 2) cleanups 3) overstandardization 4) AID 5) newsletter
(9:34:39 PM) Polaron: seems like it
(9:34:41 PM) Rschen7754: doubt it
(9:34:45 PM) Northenglish: As far as I've seen, and was brought up in the TFD, yes, we're the only ones with cleanup templates.
(9:34:57 PM) Northenglish: (of course not the only one with standards)
(9:35:15 PM) Polaron: theo nly ones with cleanup templates for subprojects
(9:35:21 PM) vishwin60: that too
(9:35:58 PM) Northenglish: As I said on WT:USRD... I'm totally fine with the trimmed down version: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Cleanup-usrd&oldid=125612121
(9:36:04 PM) Master_son: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cleanup_templates_for_WikiProjects
(9:36:29 PM) Master_son: ours seems to be the only category with them :?
(9:36:31 PM) Rschen7754: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cleanup_resources
(9:36:31 PM) Polaron: so lonely
(9:36:32 PM) SPUI: haha I like how the TFD is in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cleanup_templates_for_WikiProject_U.S._Roads
(9:36:39 PM) Rschen7754: sec 3.22
(9:36:47 PM) Northenglish: yeah... how'd that happen SPUI?
(9:37:08 PM) SPUI: someone probably forgot a :
(9:37:13 PM) Rschen7754: there are sp,e
(9:37:15 PM) Rschen7754: *some
(9:37:28 PM) TwinsMetsFan: how about the design i implemented on the NY and NC templates?
(9:37:49 PM) SPUI: yeah "[[Category:Cleanup templates for WikiProject U.S. Roads]] would need to be deleted if the these templates were deleted - it would serve no purpose."
(9:37:57 PM) Master_son: Now I can see why they are griping
(9:37:58 PM) TwinsMetsFan: (long before this whole issue came up, i might add)
(9:38:12 PM) vishwin60: hmm
(9:38:14 PM) Northenglish: As far as I see... the only one there that names a Wikiproject is the school one.
(9:38:21 PM) Rschen7754: TMF: works for me
(9:38:41 PM) Rschen7754: northenglish: video games one does
(9:39:02 PM) Polaron: and the schools one is for all schools not for schools by state/country/whatever
(9:39:14 PM) Polaron: we are the most specific one
(9:39:15 PM) TwinsMetsFan: then we should probably get that design implemented across USRD, to start with
(9:39:19 PM) vishwin60: there's a TV one
(9:39:22 PM) Northenglish: TMF: That looks like Vishwin's compromise.
(9:39:39 PM) Northenglish: i.e. trim it down, but keep in a link to the project page.
(9:39:50 PM) TwinsMetsFan: yeah, i had a feeling this was going to come up
(9:39:54 PM) Master_son: I agree with TMF on this
(9:39:59 PM) Northenglish: The question is, can we get Matt Yeager behind it?
(9:40:02 PM) TwinsMetsFan: so i took care of the NC and NY templates immediately after the TFD
(9:40:08 PM) Rschen7754: ya so we'll go with that?
(9:40:22 PM) Polaron: seems reasonable
(9:40:27 PM) Master_son: agreed
(9:40:34 PM) Northenglish: To repeat: The question is, can we get Matt Yeager behind it?
(9:40:44 PM) Master_son: who's Matt Yeager?
(9:40:46 PM) Rschen7754: thats the prob
(9:40:54 PM) Rschen7754: (keep in mind this is logged)
(9:41:05 PM) Northenglish: [[WT:USRD#Here's the problem]]
(9:41:20 PM) TwinsMetsFan: i'm not sure if he will agree to anything other than a generic cleanup template based on his comments
(9:41:28 PM) Northenglish: I know it's logged... that's why I'm making sure he's represented. :)
(9:41:33 PM) Rschen7754: correct
(9:41:39 PM) Northenglish: TMF: We'll get the version I linked to above.
(9:42:09 PM) Northenglish: It'll still categorize for us... and we can specify specifically which design standards in the rationale.
(9:42:16 PM) Rschen7754: correct
(9:42:29 PM) Rschen7754: and people will just have to live with our templates
(9:42:31 PM) ***Northenglish mutters to himself "specify specifically". I'm full of quotes today.
(9:42:41 PM) Rschen7754: if tehy complain, we point to the ohter similar templates
(9:42:42 PM) Northenglish: Why do they just have to live with them?
(9:42:52 PM) Master_son: like which?
(9:42:55 PM) Polaron: there seem to be several cleanup templates that mention "WikiProject"
(9:43:15 PM) Rschen7754: cleanup-school, the video games one, etc
(9:43:16 PM) FailureFox: here's a plan
(9:43:17 PM) Polaron: unless there is an ongoing effort to remove all of them, then I think we should be able to link to the project page
(9:43:23 PM) Rschen7754: ya
(9:43:27 PM) FailureFox: infiltrate the other projects
(9:43:32 PM) FailureFox: create equivalent templates
(9:43:51 PM) FailureFox: profit
(9:43:54 PM) Master_son: then see if they are TfD?
(9:44:01 PM) vishwin60: yeah
(9:44:19 PM) Northenglish: ignoring that... I'm in agreement... let's keep the link for now, and if Matt Yeager still objects, revisit with him then
(9:44:34 PM) Northenglish: but definitely trim down the template
(9:44:35 PM) Rschen7754: ya
(9:44:40 PM) Rschen7754: invite him to irc or something
(9:44:40 PM) Master_son: agreed
(9:44:41 PM) vishwin60: a similar template is cleanup-university
(9:45:11 PM) SPUI: how about "see the talk page for any WikiProjects that might be able to help"?
(9:45:29 PM) Northenglish: Perhaps.
(9:45:29 PM) TwinsMetsFan: for the record: trim down the template using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cleanup-nysr as a basis?
(9:45:29 PM) Northenglish: Yes.
(9:45:30 PM) Polaron: might be a good compropmise
(9:45:30 PM) Rschen7754: ya
(9:45:30 PM) Northenglish: Which looks identical to Matt Yeager's version, save for the link.
(9:45:30 PM) Rschen7754: SPUI: as a second choice i suppose
(9:45:43 PM) Master_son: Doesn't he only support {{cleanup}}
(9:45:48 PM) Master_son: acc to the entry?
(9:45:56 PM) Northenglish: No, he provided us four alternatives.
(9:45:57 PM) TwinsMetsFan: yeah, i see no reason not to have the link as long as the WP is not explicity mentioned
(9:46:04 PM) Northenglish: This is a variation of B.
(9:46:52 PM) Northenglish: A was talk page, C was {{cleanup}}, D was move the standards into Wikipedia: space, like was done for the ELG.
(9:47:14 PM) TwinsMetsFan: and to me, A,C and D are garbage
(9:47:20 PM) vishwin60: agree
(9:47:31 PM) Mitchazenia left the room (quit: "CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)").
(9:47:36 PM) Northenglish: D could work if we could agree on a single standard, which we can't yet.
(9:47:45 PM) Rschen7754: correct
(9:47:49 PM) Master_son: ok I was confused for a moment - now I'm not - and I say that C doesn't make sense in this matter. D seems like a wash since standards change
(9:48:02 PM) ***Northenglish motions towards "3) overstandardization" in the agenda.
(9:48:02 PM) Master_son: A - who would notice them on the talk page?
(9:48:10 PM) Rschen7754: ya
(9:48:11 PM) ***Master_son has to get out of here
(9:48:13 PM) Master_son: later
(9:48:17 PM) TwinsMetsFan: peace
(9:48:18 PM) Northenglish: aww, okay
(9:48:20 PM) Northenglish: see ya
(9:48:24 PM) Master_son left the room.
(9:48:34 PM) SPUI: wait, doesn't the normal {{cleanup}} say "see the talk page for more"?
(9:48:39 PM) vishwin60: yeah
(9:48:41 PM) Northenglish: Yes.
(9:48:44 PM) vishwin60: nobody ever posts
(9:48:51 PM) SPUI: so we could put the normal one on the article and the special one on talk
(9:48:55 PM) Northenglish: We replace that by putting the rationale in the tag itself.
(9:49:11 PM) Northenglish: hmm...
(9:49:14 PM) vishwin60: exactly
(9:49:25 PM) Northenglish: Vishwin: exactly what?
(9:49:25 PM) Rschen7754: seems like too much work
(9:49:46 PM) vishwin60: rationale on the tag
(9:49:49 PM) Northenglish: k
(9:50:48 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: who long is the meeting?
(9:51:04 PM) Northenglish: how long?
(9:51:06 PM) Rschen7754: dunno
(9:51:12 PM) Northenglish: till we finish the agenda.
(9:51:14 PM) SPUI: however long it needs to be
(9:51:15 PM) Rschen7754: however long it takes to get throgh the issues :|
(9:51:18 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: ok
(9:51:22 PM) SPUI: if it's too short we merge it to another meeting
(9:51:26 PM) vishwin60: are we in agreement with the cleanup templates?
(9:51:31 PM) Northenglish: fortunately 4 and 5 are behind the scenes.
(9:51:42 PM) Polaron: nysr solution looks good for now
(9:51:46 PM) Northenglish: for now, yes.
(9:51:51 PM) Polaron: we just need to try to convince the others
(9:52:07 PM) vishwin60!n=vishwin6@(hostname removed): vishwin60 has changed the topic to: Welcome to U.S. Roads IRC meeting | This meeting is logged | Agenda: 3) overstandardization 4) AID 5) newsletter
(9:52:14 PM) Northenglish: others meaning Matt Yeager about keeping the link?
(9:52:14 PM) SPUI: or maybe you can clean up the articles
(9:52:28 PM) Polaron: haha that's the best solution
(9:52:31 PM) vishwin60: lol
(9:52:49 PM) vishwin60: next
(9:54:01 PM) vishwin60: overstandardization
(9:56:32 PM) Northenglish: well, yes, SPUI, that is the goal. :-P
(9:56:32 PM) Rschen7754: ya
(9:56:32 PM) Northenglish: Just takes too much time that none of us have.
(9:57:40 PM) vishwin60: moving on here...
(10:00:23 PM) vishwin60: should all of the USRD articles have some sort of a uniform look to them?
(10:00:32 PM) TwinsMetsFan: that is currently slated for 2013
(10:00:32 PM) Northenglish: lol
(10:00:32 PM) Rschen7754: lol
(10:00:32 PM) Northenglish: Pending the completion of the PA Tpk/I-95 interchange...
(10:00:32 PM) FailureFox: that's about when I-130 will be in effect
(10:00:32 PM) Rschen7754: overstandardization/../
(10:00:32 PM) TwinsMetsFan: ooh overstandardization...that's been a hot topic in here a few times
(10:00:32 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: big word
(10:00:32 PM) Northenglish: lol
(10:00:32 PM) Rschen7754: i think it was mainly concerns regarding the movement?
(10:00:32 PM) Northenglish: "the movement"?
(10:00:32 PM) SPUI: the communist movement
(10:00:32 PM) SPUI: duhhhhhhh
(10:00:32 PM) Rschen7754: uggh history
(10:00:32 PM) FailureFox: larouche
(10:00:32 PM) Rschen7754: anyway the... trend
(10:00:33 PM) Rschen7754: the progressive, communist, democratic, etc... :|
(10:00:33 PM) Rschen7754: what were teh concerns?
(10:00:33 PM) Northenglish: Basically, do WP:USRD guidelines apply to subprojects that were already successful?
(10:00:33 PM) TwinsMetsFan: my thoughts remain the same from WT:USRD
(10:00:33 PM) Rschen7754: yes and no
(10:00:33 PM) Rschen7754: infoboxes: that's somewhat critical
(10:00:33 PM) Northenglish: On a personal and/or specific note, does NJSCR have to switch to a template-style junction list?
(10:00:33 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: some subprojects have different guidelines
(10:00:33 PM) TwinsMetsFan: North: no
(10:00:33 PM) Polaron: Is it alright for CT to use "Town" instead of "Location" in exit lists?
(10:00:33 PM) Rschen7754: north: i'd say no
(10:00:33 PM) Northenglish: I agree with infoboxes and browsing... since there the states cross over.
(10:00:33 PM) Rschen7754: because there is no [[WP:USRD/JLG]]
(10:00:33 PM) SPUI: Polaron, should be fine
(10:00:33 PM) TwinsMetsFan: Polaron: as long as only towns are used, and not villages or cities
(10:00:33 PM) SPUI: or replace county with town
(10:00:33 PM) SPUI: TwinsMetsFan, [[New England town]]
(10:00:33 PM) Polaron: everything is a town in CT
(10:00:33 PM) Northenglish: i.e. It just doesn't work for [[Interstate 10]] to have Texas-style browsing in its srbox
(10:00:33 PM) Rschen7754: b/c doesnt ct have some stuff regarding townships and stuff?
(10:00:33 PM) TwinsMetsFan: well, there you go :P
(10:00:33 PM) Polaron: even the so-called cities are really towns
(10:00:33 PM) Northenglish: Right, but we do have [[WP:USRD]]... which seems to indicate that it has to be templates.
(10:00:33 PM) FailureFox: some junctions are literally in the middle of nowhere
(10:00:33 PM) TwinsMetsFan: well, that was the actions of one editor
(10:00:33 PM) Northenglish: moving on from where to where?
(10:00:33 PM) Rschen7754: north: not really
(10:00:33 PM) Northenglish: Essentially what I'd like to see is the opposite of the "Subproject delegation" clause.
(10:00:33 PM) Rschen7754: we have no standard of jct lists
(10:00:33 PM) Northenglish: If a subproject has a complete standard in place, that takes precedence over [[WP:USRD]]
(10:00:33 PM) Polaron: I'm for that
(10:00:33 PM) Rschen7754: i think that besides including mileposts there shouldnt be one
(10:00:33 PM) Rschen7754: north: to some extent
(10:00:33 PM) Rschen7754: obviously INNA doesnt count
(10:00:33 PM) Northenglish: Right, because that has to cross state lines.
(10:00:33 PM) Rschen7754: re ELG, i'm assuming it doesnt have to be precise
(10:00:36 PM) Rschen7754: i mean it should be close though
(10:00:37 PM) TwinsMetsFan: if my memory serves me right, the subproject clause was written for the browsing template only initially
(10:00:42 PM) Rschen7754: vishwin60: yes and no
(10:00:54 PM) Rschen7754: not every state is the same
(10:01:08 PM) Rschen7754: but some stuff like infoboxes,. browse, basic structure, should be same
(10:01:10 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: true
(10:01:25 PM) Northenglish: The basic format should be the same... text, exit/junction list in the form of a table, links
(10:01:41 PM) Northenglish: Preferably "Route description" should be the first text section.
(10:01:53 PM) Northenglish: I've never understood why [[WP:USH]] uses "States traversed"
(10:02:10 PM) Polaron: remnant of old system
(10:02:44 PM) Rschen7754: ya that needs to be fixed
(10:02:50 PM) Rschen7754: to whatever IH uses
(10:03:08 PM) TwinsMetsFan: route description, i think
(10:03:11 PM) Rschen7754: that project was created in 05 and hasnt changed too much
(10:03:14 PM) vishwin60: yeah, we better fix to rt desc
(10:03:16 PM) deepshuck [n=wwwww@(hostname removed)] entered the room.
(10:03:16 PM) Northenglish: If not it should be ;)
(10:03:43 PM) TwinsMetsFan: intrastate US routes already use route description
(10:04:01 PM) vishwin60: so should every USRD article
(10:04:04 PM) SPUI left the room (quit: Nick collision from services.).
(10:04:10 PM) Rschen7754: ya
(10:04:16 PM) Northenglish: I'm down with that.
(10:04:18 PM) Rschen7754: every state should ahve cleanup?
(10:04:37 PM) vishwin60: every state that has a project
(10:04:42 PM) Northenglish: Yeah... probably...
(10:04:54 PM) TwinsMetsFan: i used to say yes, now i'm not sure
(10:05:05 PM) TwinsMetsFan: after the TFD and the recent complaints
(10:05:06 PM) Northenglish: do tell
(10:05:23 PM) vishwin60: hmm
(10:05:57 PM) Rschen7754: its the best solution at this point imho
(10:06:06 PM) vishwin60: yeah
(10:06:22 PM) vishwin60: there is a possibility of mashing every state into the usrd template
(10:06:32 PM) Northenglish: Especially if we just decided that state guidelines take precedence.
(10:06:33 PM) vishwin60: {{#switch:{{{state}}}
(10:06:38 PM) Rschen7754: sounds like a coding probl though
(10:06:58 PM) Rschen7754: north: waht states specifically are we talking abour?
(10:07:02 PM) TwinsMetsFan: it'd be a lot easier if the NC for cleanup categories were consistent
(10:07:10 PM) vishwin60: yeah
(10:07:18 PM) Northenglish: If a state project has a complete guideline.
(10:07:26 PM) Rschen7754: ya we need to standardize teh cat names, stub names, etc
(10:07:27 PM) vishwin60: right
(10:07:38 PM) Rschen7754: that's 60-80% of states
(10:07:53 PM) Northenglish: 60-80 is a big range, lol
(10:07:58 PM) vishwin60: yeah
(10:08:14 PM) TwinsMetsFan: bigger question is "what state is at standards"?
(10:08:26 PM) TwinsMetsFan: when you have to ask that, you know there's a problem
(10:08:28 PM) Rschen7754: are we talking about WP page or artiucles?
(10:08:38 PM) TwinsMetsFan: stub/cat/cleanup NC
(10:09:00 PM) Northenglish: I was thinking WP page
(10:09:25 PM) ***vishwin60 sticks his finger towards NYSR
(10:09:42 PM) Northenglish: Thus Washington would qualify, even though it needs help to get to its own standards.
(10:09:46 PM) Rschen7754: that's 60-80% of all the states though
(10:10:11 PM) Rschen7754: i think only the states taht are nearly done should have any exemtpion from USRD standards
(10:10:22 PM) vishwin60: true
(10:10:28 PM) vishwin60: but MD's a disaster
(10:10:38 PM) vishwin60: even though it's complete
(10:10:45 PM) Northenglish: What you have to realize is that there aren't going to be many differences between those 60-80% and the USRD standards.
(10:10:45 PM) Polaron: you seem to be on a crusade against MD
(10:11:09 PM) vishwin60: MD is just terribly nonstandard
(10:11:13 PM) Northenglish: Well, Maryland doesn't have any structure on its project page.
(10:11:18 PM) Northenglish: So there you go.
(10:11:21 PM) vishwin60: it's on it's EG
(10:11:25 PM) vishwin60: a subpage
(10:11:29 PM) Polaron: it's on subpages if I recall
(10:11:34 PM) Northenglish: oh
(10:11:36 PM) Northenglish: nm
(10:11:46 PM) Northenglish: lol
(10:11:57 PM) Rschen7754: MD has some issues
(10:12:01 PM) Rschen7754: but it's not the worst
(10:12:56 PM) vishwin60: but it's pretty bad
(10:13:22 PM) vishwin60: biggie: no browsing whatsoever
(10:13:45 PM) Northenglish: What I see is that the counties and cities/towns sections need to be removed; history moved above exit list...
(10:14:07 PM) vishwin60: yeah
(10:14:36 PM) Northenglish: That's about it... browsing added... that's important
(10:15:37 PM) Northenglish: The alternate to giving subprojects precedence is to make USRD a little more lenient.
(10:16:04 PM) vishwin60: yeah
(10:16:06 PM) Northenglish: So that the "good" subprojects don't come into conflict with it
(10:16:27 PM) Northenglish: but the "bad" projects can still be tweaked so that they fall into line.
(10:17:44 PM) TwinsMetsFan: no problems with that on my end
(10:17:50 PM) vishwin60: agree
(10:17:52 PM) Polaron: what are the requirements of a "good" project?
(10:17:54 PM) Rschen7754: such as...
(10:18:03 PM) Northenglish: To be 100% honest... a major part of this is personal... and I'm happy with any solution that ends arguing on here between NJ-style and NY-style junction lists.
(10:18:10 PM) Rschen7754: brb
(10:19:09 PM) Northenglish: Polaron: Prose sections (ideally starting with "Route description"); junction list in the form of a table, minimally including mileposts; links
(10:19:25 PM) Northenglish: INNA is nationwide and has to be followed to a T.
(10:20:15 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: nationwide is on your side
(10:20:29 PM) Northenglish: ?
(10:20:42 PM) vishwin60: lol
(10:20:48 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: joke
(10:20:57 PM) Northenglish: oh
(10:20:58 PM) vishwin60: the only exception to INNA is WA
(10:21:01 PM) Polaron: does the junction table have to be certain format?
(10:21:04 PM) Northenglish: no, not even
(10:21:12 PM) Northenglish: (to Vishwin)
(10:21:20 PM) vishwin60: the NY-styled ones are recommended
(10:21:24 PM) TwinsMetsFan: Polaron: ELG derived
(10:21:31 PM) TwinsMetsFan: headers, anyway
(10:21:36 PM) Polaron: is there an option to add road names?
(10:21:38 PM) Northenglish: They're recommended by you Vishwin.
(10:21:46 PM) Northenglish: Personally, I discourage them.
(10:21:49 PM) vishwin60: road names are optional
(10:21:57 PM) Northenglish: Try subst'ing them, and you're in for a world of hurt.
(10:22:16 PM) vishwin60: I don't care if {{Jctint}} is even substed
(10:23:42 PM) Northenglish: No, my point is, I dislike the templates because the coding behind them is too complicated and not worth it when simple table syntax will do.
(10:23:58 PM) Northenglish: You can't subst {{Jctint}} because of all the parser functions.
(10:24:07 PM) vishwin60: right
(10:24:07 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: you'll understand it, i first had trouble wit it too
(10:24:13 PM) vishwin60: yeah, same here
(10:24:36 PM) vishwin60: as South Park says, "it's easier to persecute, than to understand"
(10:24:41 PM) Northenglish: It's not a question of understanding it... just what's the point?
(10:24:53 PM) Northenglish: I'm sure I could implement it no problem.
(10:25:16 PM) Northenglish: Also, why are they still using color when we decided it was a bad idea for exit lists?
(10:25:30 PM) vishwin60: as I've always said, jct lists are not exit lists
(10:25:35 PM) Polaron: yeah the color is a little much I think
(10:25:44 PM) vishwin60: we've come to an agreement on exit lists not having colours
(10:25:48 PM) Northenglish: I understand that, but with regards to color, the logic is identical.
(10:26:19 PM) Northenglish: There's no reason for a concurrency on a junction list to have color when a concurrency on an exit list does not.
(10:26:43 PM) vishwin60: hold on
(10:26:58 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: he has a good point
(10:27:27 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: i have no problem wit the colors on exit list
(10:27:51 PM) vishwin60: but the thing is, the colours on jct lists correspond with decomd, and unbuilt roads as well
(10:28:07 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: oh yeah, true
(10:28:17 PM) deepshuck: which is something you can say with text
(10:28:19 PM) deepshuck: "proposed I-99"
(10:28:21 PM) Northenglish: And if we wanted to, we could use gray for decommissioned highways on exit lists as well.
(10:28:24 PM) deepshuck: "former I-99"
(10:28:38 PM) vishwin60: and what about the overpasses/underpasses?
(10:28:49 PM) Northenglish: Those really shouldn't be on there period.
(10:28:50 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: orange?
(10:28:53 PM) vishwin60: yeah
(10:28:57 PM) vishwin60: and they should be there
(10:29:00 PM) deepshuck: yes, no access at all should not be there
(10:29:07 PM) Northenglish: It's a junction list.
(10:29:10 PM) Polaron: the colors are just a hold over from when they were in the infobox
(10:29:17 PM) Northenglish: There's no junction if there's no access.
(10:29:25 PM) TwinsMetsFan: Polaron, same w/ the no access
(10:29:41 PM) TwinsMetsFan: the colors and no access predate my wiki career
(10:29:46 PM) Northenglish: WE'RE WAY OFF TOPIC. ANYONE WANT TO MOVE ON WITH THE AGENEDA?
(10:29:50 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: it tells if an important freeways goves over/under the hwy
(10:30:00 PM) vishwin60: actually, major highways
(10:30:20 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: that too
(10:30:32 PM) deepshuck: if it does, SAY SO IN TEXT
(10:30:37 PM) deepshuck: WRITE A DESCRIPTION
(10:30:44 PM) deepshuck: THIS ROUTE RUNS HERE AND CROSSES HERE
(10:30:47 PM) Northenglish: It can be done with text in the route description section, but if it's not a junction, it shouldn't be in the junction list.
(10:30:48 PM) vishwin60: it's a table
(10:30:56 PM) deepshuck: <+Northenglish> It can be done with text in the route description section
(10:30:57 PM) deepshuck: yes
(10:30:58 PM) Northenglish: a table of junctions.
(10:31:28 PM) vishwin60: for example, US 40 in IN is a surface road for its entire length, but passes under SR 3
(10:31:54 PM) vishwin60: it's more likely a SLD
(10:32:26 PM) deepshuck: who cares if it passes under SR 3 if there's no access?
(10:33:08 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: but something needs to clarify that SR 3 passes under US 40
(10:33:13 PM) vishwin60: exactly
(10:33:33 PM) vishwin60: because SR 3 runs n-s, and by logic, it *has* to intersect US 40
(10:33:38 PM) deepshuck: say so in the description
(10:33:39 PM) TwinsMetsFan: how about this: use no access if there's no description
(10:33:40 PM) vishwin60: but it doesn't
(10:33:40 PM) Polaron: route description?
(10:34:06 PM) Northenglish: I'm going to take all this magical power I don't have, and ask if there's agreement that we should make [[WP:USRD]] more lenient so that "good" projects don't come into conflict with it. If there is agreement, then let's move on to the next item on the agenda, the AID.
(10:34:13 PM) Northenglish: This is a discussion for another time.
(10:34:51 PM) vishwin60: ok
(10:34:54 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: righty then
(10:34:56 PM) vishwin60: moving on here...
(10:35:03 PM) Northenglish: so, agreement?
(10:35:05 PM) deepshuck: just one more thing
(10:35:06 PM) deepshuck: <@vishwin60> because SR 3 runs n-s, and by logic, it *has* to intersect US 40
(10:35:09 PM) deepshuck: that's not true
(10:35:15 PM) deepshuck: indiana has discontinuous routes
(10:35:18 PM) ***Northenglish rolls eyes.
(10:35:25 PM) deepshuck: ok, move on now
(10:35:29 PM) Northenglish: lol
(10:35:38 PM) vishwin60: but there's no gap near US 40
(10:35:39 PM) Northenglish: fine then...
(10:35:40 PM) vishwin60: moving on
(10:35:49 PM) vishwin60!n=vishwin6@(hostname removed): vishwin60 has changed the topic to: Welcome to U.S. Roads IRC meeting | This meeting is logged | Agenda: 4) AID 5) newsletter
(10:36:11 PM) TwinsMetsFan: ok, AID
(10:36:15 PM) vishwin60: AID: there's not much activity
(10:36:19 PM) TwinsMetsFan: it's no secret this has been a bust
(10:36:32 PM) vishwin60: US 40 & 191 are in terrible shape
(10:36:42 PM) Northenglish: From what I've seen, the articles that have been nominated for improvement have barely been touched.
(10:36:52 PM) vishwin60: I've been trying to find lengths for US 40
(10:37:11 PM) deepshuck: haha AID
(10:37:28 PM) deepshuck: did *anything* come out of that better?
(10:37:39 PM) vishwin60: Ridge Route got back up to FA
(10:37:40 PM) Polaron: can we make a list of specific things to do for each chosen article?
(10:37:54 PM) deepshuck: oh
(10:38:10 PM) Northenglish: And not take them off the drive until something gets done.
(10:38:36 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: agreed.
(10:38:36 PM) vishwin60: exactly
(10:39:26 PM) Rschen7754: back
(10:39:51 PM) TwinsMetsFan: i think that was the temporary solution i put into the last newsletter
(10:40:06 PM) TwinsMetsFan: i have no problems making it permanent
(10:40:11 PM) Rschen7754: ya
(10:40:15 PM) Northenglish: Basically, there are two problems. One, hardly anyone participates in improving the articles. I certainly don't.
(10:40:21 PM) Rschen7754: it's also a pain to have to rotate the AID thing
(10:40:35 PM) Rschen7754: problem is, i usually wind up being stuck rotating it
(10:40:42 PM) Northenglish: But two, the few that do, before they get anywhere, they have to move on to the next one.
(10:41:58 PM) Rschen7754: what if we went down to 1 article
(10:41:58 PM) Rschen7754: ?
(10:42:00 PM) Polaron: probably better
(10:44:43 PM) Rschen7754: b/c it increases chances of working
(10:44:43 PM) Rschen7754: what if we say it has to increase 1 class bfore continuing?
(10:44:43 PM) deepshuck: haha article classes
(10:44:43 PM) Polaron: no need for that
(10:44:43 PM) Polaron: i'm sure we'll know if there was improvement
(10:44:43 PM) Rschen7754: ok
(10:44:43 PM) TwinsMetsFan: i don't consider stub -> start that much of an improvement
(10:44:43 PM) TwinsMetsFan: stub -> B, that's improvement
(10:44:43 PM) Rschen7754: but it should definitely not have a cleanup tag at the end
(10:44:43 PM) Rschen7754: lol
(10:45:07 PM) vishwin60: yep
(10:45:25 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: brb
(10:50:53 PM) vishwin60: ok so we're all in agreement here?
(10:53:40 PM) TwinsMetsFan: and all articles picked for AID, for right now, should be one tagged for cleanup
(10:53:41 PM) TwinsMetsFan: in an attempt to reduce the backlog
(10:53:41 PM) Northenglish: agreed
(10:53:41 PM) Rschen7754: ya
(10:53:41 PM) Polaron: good idea
(10:53:42 PM) TwinsMetsFan: and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:U.S._road_articles_lacking_cleanup_rationale should be cleaned out first
(10:53:42 PM) Rschen7754: ya
(10:53:42 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: im back
(10:53:42 PM) TwinsMetsFan: perhaps we should start with the main US routes
(10:53:42 PM) Rschen7754: not interstates
(10:53:42 PM) Rschen7754: ?
(10:53:42 PM) TwinsMetsFan: well, Interstates at least have rationale
(10:53:42 PM) Polaron: U.S. Route 1 needs help
(10:53:42 PM) Northenglish: LOL... one of the ones in that category was just tagged by Rschen an hour ago. :-P
(10:53:42 PM) Rschen7754: oh in regards to rationale
(10:53:42 PM) Rschen7754: guilty :|
(10:53:43 PM) Rschen7754: on... 1 AID, wait until improved, needs to be a cleanup?
(10:53:43 PM) Northenglish: one article at a time, keep them until they're actually improved, start with ones cleanup without rationale?
(10:53:43 PM) Northenglish: okay... Rschen beat me
(10:53:43 PM) Northenglish: but yes
(10:53:43 PM) TwinsMetsFan: agree with North's summary
(10:53:43 PM) Rschen7754: o ok
(10:53:43 PM) Rschen7754: ya
(10:53:43 PM) deepshuck: also choose ones that CAN be improved?
(10:53:44 PM) TwinsMetsFan: that won't be a problem with these articles
(10:53:44 PM) deepshuck: like not one-mile route to buttfuck egypt
(10:53:44 PM) Rschen7754: correct
(10:53:58 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: lol
(10:54:37 PM) TwinsMetsFan: the articles in the cat i linked are, in most cases, several hundred miles long
(10:54:44 PM) TwinsMetsFan: and lacking a description
(10:54:54 PM) TwinsMetsFan: so yeah, there's room for improvement
(10:55:58 PM) Rschen7754: so we're good there?
(10:56:07 PM) Rschen7754: i suppose somebody's gotta rewrite the instructions tehn
(10:56:38 PM) vishwin60: ok, moving on...
(10:56:49 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: yup, please
(10:56:53 PM) vishwin60!n=vishwin6@(hostname removed): vishwin60 has changed the topic to: Welcome to U.S. Roads IRC meeting | This meeting is logged | Agenda: 5) newsletter
(10:56:55 PM) Rschen7754: newsletter
(10:57:07 PM) vishwin60: our final topic before the meeting ends
(10:57:09 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: my favorite toppic
(10:57:39 PM) vishwin60: newsletters are delivered by VshBot
(10:57:57 PM) Northenglish: okay, specifically what's the problem with the newsletter?
(10:58:06 PM) vishwin60: not enough content
(10:58:15 PM) Rschen7754: it's growing inactive itself
(10:58:21 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: hmm...
(10:58:29 PM) Northenglish: So put it out less often.
(10:58:31 PM) Rschen7754: what's been suggested is having state project updates
(10:58:47 PM) Rschen7754: i mean the material is out there
(10:58:52 PM) vishwin60: yep
(10:58:52 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: look at wat's goin on at WT:USRD
(10:58:54 PM) Rschen7754: but we need more editors to write about it
(10:58:58 PM) vishwin60: yes
(11:00:20 PM) Rschen7754: and we need a more rigid schedule
(11:00:20 PM) Rschen7754: right now, i feel like i;'m doing most of the work
(11:00:29 PM) Northenglish: well, actually, maybe a less rigid schedule would help...
(11:00:31 PM) Rschen7754: and the last two issues i couldn't do much of it and the newsletter was done alst minute
(11:00:47 PM) vishwin60: yes, again
(11:00:52 PM) Northenglish: Just send it out once things are written.
(11:01:02 PM) vishwin60: uhh, no
(11:01:07 PM) Rschen7754: problem is, that coudl be every 6 months
(11:01:12 PM) vishwin60: yeah
(11:01:20 PM) Northenglish: Well, if that's the case so be it...
(11:01:29 PM) Northenglish: then we would have bigger problems on our hands.
(11:01:32 PM) vishwin60: uhh, no again
(11:01:34 PM) Rschen7754: but then it's pointless to have a newsletter
(11:01:41 PM) vishwin60: exactly
(11:01:46 PM) deepshuck: so don't have one
(11:01:54 PM) deepshuck: who needs one?
(11:02:16 PM) Northenglish: Okay, in this alternate universe where we only have enough to write every six months, yes it would be pointless.
(11:02:16 PM) vishwin60: we need it to keep ourselves informed
(11:02:20 PM) Rschen7754: one, to remind users about the project
(11:02:33 PM) Northenglish: My point is this, the newsletter isn't something to be worried about.
(11:02:38 PM) Rschen7754: b/c apparently users are too lazy to look at template:project u,s, roads
(11:02:44 PM) vishwin60: exactly
(11:02:44 PM) deepshuck: if that's all you need, just post every week "have you remembered to check [[WT:USRD]] recently?"
(11:02:53 PM) vishwin60: that's just tastless and tedious
(11:03:01 PM) Rschen7754: well thing is, many projs use newsletters
(11:03:09 PM) Northenglish: More tedious than worrying about a newsletter?
(11:03:21 PM) vishwin60: <@Rschen7754> well thing is, many projs use newsletters
(11:03:30 PM) vishwin60: agreed on that
(11:03:35 PM) deepshuck: many people eat babies!
(11:04:04 PM) Northenglish: Do they send it out as often as we do? Do they have the same number of contributors?
(11:04:18 PM) Rschen7754: the problem is... i feel like i'm the person who has to remind people to contribute, and if i can't do the newsletter one week, it gets done last minute
(11:04:21 PM) deepshuck: seriously, you're treating this like a [[cargo cult]] religion - "if we make newsletters like the other projects, we'll be cool like them"
(11:04:35 PM) Rschen7754: i've had to do other things for the last 2 issues and they got done last minute
(11:04:42 PM) Northenglish: Then don't do it last minute.
(11:04:46 PM) Northenglish: Wait till next week.
(11:04:47 PM) Rschen7754: i remember easter ed it got delivered a day late
(11:04:51 PM) vishwin60: yep
(11:04:59 PM) Rschen7754: well people go "where's my newsletter???"
(11:04:59 PM) vishwin60: on one issue I had to do most of it
(11:05:07 PM) vishwin60: and yes, exactly our point
(11:05:08 PM) Northenglish: do they really?
(11:05:18 PM) Northenglish: i honestly have a hard time believing that.
(11:05:20 PM) deepshuck: did anyone go "where's my newsletter???"?
(11:05:34 PM) Rschen7754: i think someone did
(11:05:38 PM) Rschen7754: i think it was JA10
(11:05:43 PM) Rschen7754: but im not sure
(11:05:50 PM) deepshuck: smack him
(11:05:51 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: wtf!
(11:05:51 PM) Northenglish: lol
(11:06:03 PM) deepshuck: if he wants one he can write it
(11:06:07 PM) Northenglish: i tried to warn you that he was in the room, just didn't get to it in time.
(11:06:09 PM) Rschen7754: ok i guess not
(11:06:40 PM) Northenglish: Here's my point, I'm in favor of the idea of newsletters... but not of you stressing over them.
(11:06:49 PM) Northenglish: Cut the frequency in half or something.
(11:07:09 PM) vishwin60: no
(11:07:26 PM) Northenglish: Fine, then stress over getting it out on a deadline, see what I care.
(11:07:30 PM) vishwin60: if you are interested in the 'letter, I suggest you write a section yourself
(11:07:39 PM) TwinsMetsFan: to once a month? yes, there'd be content, but that doesn't fix the editor problem
(11:07:45 PM) Rschen7754: i mean, signpost is more structured
(11:07:56 PM) vishwin60: yeah
(11:07:56 PM) Rschen7754: furthermore, lots of stuff would be outdated by end of month
(11:08:03 PM) vishwin60: mm-hmm
(11:09:09 PM) vishwin60: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_U.S._Roads/Newsletter/Newsroom/Deadlines looks very good
(11:09:42 PM) Rschen7754: b/c the problem is, if we dont apply pressure
(11:09:45 PM) Rschen7754: nothing gets done
(11:09:48 PM) Rschen7754: like auditing a class
(11:10:12 PM) Northenglish: applying pressure on editors isn't going to get them to write a story for a newsletter
(11:10:20 PM) Northenglish: if anything it will make them less likely to
(11:10:26 PM) vishwin60: actually, it does help us out
(11:11:01 PM) Northenglish: Applying pressure?
(11:11:13 PM) vishwin60: yeah
(11:11:20 PM) vishwin60: the pressure is mixed in with motivation
(11:11:26 PM) Northenglish: That explains a lot.
(11:11:39 PM) deepshuck: "write a story or Rschen7754 will block you"
(11:11:46 PM) vishwin60: definately not...
(11:12:02 PM) Rschen7754: no not at all like that
(11:12:11 PM) vishwin60: that's abusing admin tools
(11:12:12 PM) Rschen7754: i'll be upset, but i wouldnt block
(11:12:21 PM) ***Northenglish thinks certain people have a hard time recognizing sarcasm.
(11:12:21 PM) Rschen7754: correct
(11:13:20 PM) Rschen7754: lets just keep it civil and move on, ok?
(11:13:29 PM) Northenglish: What kind of pressure are we talking about?
(11:13:50 PM) Rschen7754: just putting a deadline on the [page
(11:14:52 PM) Northenglish: Wait... so are you looking for an update from every state WP by every other Friday?
(11:14:58 PM) Rschen7754: ya
(11:15:20 PM) Rschen7754: just 1-2 sentences
(11:15:23 PM) Northenglish: Looking at the bottom section, that's going over real well so far.
(11:15:40 PM) Rschen7754: we havent publicized this system though.
(11:15:57 PM) Northenglish: And if they don't they get the "scarlet letter" scolding them for not turning in their homework on time?
(11:16:53 PM) Rschen7754: we just say they didnt submit a thing
(11:16:54 PM) Northenglish: "to provide accountability"
(11:17:12 PM) Rschen7754: so they dont go oh well screw the newsletter we wont submit anything
(11:17:26 PM) deepshuck: screw the newsletter
(11:17:50 PM) Northenglish: I'm not submitting anything.
(11:18:15 PM) Rschen7754: these are also on a signup basis.
(11:18:23 PM) Rschen7754: but it's just 2 sentences
(11:18:39 PM) Northenglish: Right but if no one signs up, you still whine about no one turning anything in, right?
(11:18:54 PM) Rschen7754: no, someone will pick up the extra states
(11:19:09 PM) Northenglish: So basically... it's the same system you have now.
(11:19:24 PM) Rschen7754: and if somebody goes on vacation or soemthing if they just let us know, then we'll be ok with it
(11:19:27 PM) Northenglish: If no one writes anything, you'll rush to get it out at the last minute.
(11:19:44 PM) Rschen7754: yes, but we wont be very happy with the people who slacked off
(11:19:59 PM) vishwin60: mm-hmm
(11:20:03 PM) deepshuck: I'm sure they'll care
(11:20:22 PM) Rschen7754: what if we said... you need to submit a update for your project to be considered active
(11:20:26 PM) Rschen7754: otheriwse it will be demoted?
(11:20:32 PM) deepshuck: hahaha
(11:20:36 PM) Northenglish: Then I'd say go fuck yourself.
(11:20:46 PM) Rschen7754: it is extremely said when somebody cannot write 2 sentences
(11:21:03 PM) #wikipedia-en-roads-us: mode (+m ) by vishwin60
(11:21:13 PM) Northenglish: Oh joy, I'm about to get banned.
(11:21:30 PM) Northenglish: Well, you guys have a nice time then.
(11:21:34 PM) Rschen7754: just dont say what you did with the f word and you'll be fine
(11:21:41 PM) vishwin60: yeah
(11:21:44 PM) Northenglish: I thought NPA didn't apply here.
(11:21:55 PM) Northenglish: Last time I tried to invoke it I got banned.
(11:22:04 PM) Rschen7754: you're saying that was a personal attack?
(11:22:05 PM) Northenglish: I'm just so confused...
(11:22:07 PM) TwinsMetsFan: generally, there's no profanity in a meeting that's publically logged
(11:22:15 PM) vishwin60: we should note that
(11:22:30 PM) Rschen7754: we've just been lax about enforcing that
(11:22:44 PM) Rschen7754: NPA or not, thats just rude
(11:23:02 PM) vishwin60: mm-hmm
(11:23:08 PM) Northenglish: Well, whatever, good luck trying to demote more wikiprojects just cuz they don't give a damn about your newsletter.
(11:23:16 PM) Northenglish left the room (quit: "Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 1.5.0.11/2007031202]").
(11:23:27 PM) Rschen7754: it's just 2 sentences
(11:23:32 PM) Rschen7754: good grief
(11:23:34 PM) vishwin60: oh, boy
(11:23:40 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: wats the big deal?
(11:24:05 PM) #wikipedia-en-roads-us: mode (-m ) by vishwin60
(11:24:27 PM) Polaron: threatening demotion for lack of updates in a newsletter is never a good thing
(11:24:37 PM) vishwin60: it's sarcasm, again
(11:24:54 PM) vishwin60: but still, faulty logic
(11:25:01 PM) Rschen7754: it shows activity
(11:25:08 PM) Rschen7754: it';s 4 sentences a month
(11:25:24 PM) Rschen7754: you probably could make it 3 or 2
(11:25:31 PM) deepshuck: hahaha good thing this is being logged
(11:25:44 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: im da worst writer here and i could it
(11:25:46 PM) Rschen7754: maybe i shouldnt have suggested that
(11:25:57 PM) vishwin60: you're not the worst writer here
(11:26:04 PM) vishwin60: IPs are much worse
(11:26:16 PM) Rschen7754: but what frustrates me is that a lot of people jsut are encompassed in their own state hwy WP and dont care about USRD
(11:26:17 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: ok
(11:26:24 PM) vishwin60: yep
(11:26:41 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: true, i dont always edit PASH articles
(11:26:47 PM) vishwin60: that's good
(11:27:01 PM) vishwin60: yeah, when I first started, I was only thinking PASH
(11:27:23 PM) vishwin60: but this is getting way off topic
(11:27:27 PM) Rschen7754: when i started, the only proj was CASH :|
(11:27:30 PM) JohnnyAlbert10: me too, i loved PA highways and i wanna fix every article
(11:27:36 PM) Rschen7754: it is
(11:27:49 PM) Rschen7754: re the newsletter
(11:27:49 PM) Rschen7754: it's 4 dang sentences
(11:27:53 PM) Rschen7754: a month
(11:28:04 PM) vishwin60: that it?
(11:28:11 PM) vishwin60: if it is...
(11:28:17 PM) Rschen7754: the projects probably wont be demoted, but they deserve to be if they cant write 4 dang sentences a month
(11:28:20 PM) Rschen7754: 2 each issue
(11:28:24 PM) vishwin60: ok
(11:28:30 PM) Rschen7754: although a long 1 might work
(11:28:37 PM) vishwin60: hmm
(11:28:48 PM) vishwin60: it's food for thought
(11:28:52 PM) vishwin60: but anyway...
(11:29:00 PM) Rschen7754: if somebody cant do that, thats just sad
(11:29:11 PM) vishwin60: The second IRC meeting of USRD has officially concluded. Thanks for coming, everyone!