MyWiki:Reference desk/Humanities

{{Wikipedia:Reference desk/header|WP:RD/H}}

December 6

What academic degree was a "Pd. B." awarded in Missouri, USA in 1904?

A 1952 obituary (Newspapers.com link) mentions its subject Mr. Irion graduating with a "Pd. B." in 1904 from Southeast Missouri State College before getting an A.B. and B.S. in Education in 1911.

What is the full name for the academic degree "Pd. B."? It's not clear to me what degree that would be, issued before a Bachelor of Arts and a Bachelor of Science. Lovelano (talk) 04:51, 6 December 2025 (UTC)

I don't know the answer, but FYI, you need a newspapers.com subscription to view that page. --Viennese Waltz 05:23, 6 December 2025 (UTC)

Probably "Bachelor of Pedagogy", as mentioned on p.316 of this book [3] (p.118 of the pdf). --Viennese Waltz 05:30, 6 December 2025 (UTC)

Indeed, Southeast Missouri was a Normal school in 1904. DuncanHill (talk) 16:37, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

@Viennese Waltz Thanks for looking up that book! Lovelano (talk) 20:36, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

December 7

Is this a fake poster? San Ferry Ann

Our article San Ferry Ann is illustrated with an alleged poster for the film. The poster is sourced to IMDB. The poster is obviously an over-painting of the poster for Father Came Too. Is it a genuine poster or something someone made up one day and which ended up on the internet? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 01:10, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

It does seem highly suspicious. Wilfrid Brambell looks nothing like the obvious caricature of James Robertson Justice, and neither he nor David Lodge even have beards in the film. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:33, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

There's an explanation here on a collector's site; "A terrible mishmash of a poster where apparently the Australian poster artist had no original U.K. material of San Ferry Ann ( 1965 ) at hand to copy from". Abductive (reasoning) 10:49, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

I have websearched for the original poster art for San Ferry Ann without success. The British Film Institute archives website is currently experiencing technical difficulties. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2025-31359-08 (talk) 03:26, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

Thanks all. I take it the triangular "Passed for general exhibition" logo is Australian then? DuncanHill (talk) 14:40, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

The classification was also British;^[4] it appears to have been common in several regions of the realm. But the triangle logo appears to have been specifically Australian.^[5] In fact, the Australian Classification Board uses a triangle to this day, but now with just a large 𝗚 as text.  ​‑‑Lambiam 16:34, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, I was familiar with the British use of "passed for general exhibition", but had never seen the triangle before. DuncanHill (talk) 19:31, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

December 8

Did Masaniello paint his face black?

There's a song by Pino Daniele called "Je so' pazzo" (covered by Neri per Caso) in which the singer is speaking as Masaniello. It implies that he painted his face black (I don't use the word "blackface" because that comes with a different cultural context).

Lyrics:

Je so' pazz, je so' pazz
Ma chi dice che Masaniell
Poi nero non sia più bell?
Non sono menomat
Sono pure diplomat
E la faccia nera l'ho dipinta per essere notat

But I can't find anything that says even that this happened, much less why. I tried asking Google Masaniello si dipinse la faccia di nero?, and the AI summary says yes, but when you go into the deep dive it says no. Did Daniele just invent this, or is it part of some folk account? --Trovatore (talk) 05:05, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

I do not speak Italian but I have read that idiomatically, a black face in Italian may refer to a gloomy or disappointed or angry facial expression. Is that a possible explanation? Cullen328 (talk) 08:49, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

Masianello is described as bruno di carnagione,^[6] and the terracotta statue of Masaniello by Raffaele Vaccarella has indeed been given a rather dark complexion. Perhaps this plays a role.  ​‑‑Lambiam 16:15, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

Google isn’t always reliable. In fact, it can sometimes provide misleading answers. He-who-knows-everything (talk) 22:08, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

"the AI summary says yes, but when you go into the deep dive it says no"—I think there is a lesson to be learned from that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:13, 12 December 2025 (UTC)

A lesson about what? If you mean about AI summaries, sure, I already got that. If you mean about my question, I don't really see how. --Trovatore (talk) 19:47, 12 December 2025 (UTC)

Those horrible health huts

In the short story 'The Crown Derby Plate' by Marjorie Bowen, first published in 1933, Miss Pym is visiting a remote house on the edge of Fenland. The occupant is of an odd, unkept, and dirty appearance, and the house itself appears not be lived in. When Miss Pym asks "Where do you live, Miss Lefain?", she receives the reply "Mostly in the garden", and to this "Miss Pym thought of those horrible health huts that some people indulge in". What were those horrible health huts? Unfortunately Google is obsessed with 1950s California proto-hippies. Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 19:39, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

Also lots of village clinics in developing countries, but nothing pertinent I'm afraid. Alansplodge (talk) 21:18, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

I found a reference to a 1958 restaurant called the 'Health Hut' in The Origin of Hippie in Europe 1880 to 1940 by Anne Hill Fernie, which led me vaguely towards John Hargrave (misspelt as Hargreaves on the web page) and Kibbo Kift, which has a 'feel' of what you are looking for, and started in the UK in the early 1930s1920s. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 09:21, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

Almost all early uses (pre-1940) found are for simple health clinics, not for dwellings. An early use that may perhaps refer to a dwelling, in which case it does little to explain the notion, but might also refer to a health clinic, is in Appendix Volume III to a report by the Indian Famine Commission. The appendix bears the title Evidence of Witnesses from the Bombay Presidency taken before the India Famine Commission, 1898. The following is from page 226, reporting on good care taken of a poor woman whose hut had been flooded and who had to be evacuated with her child to "a place of safety":^[7]

A few days later I came across them again in a health hut.

Since Bowen appears to have assumed her readers to be familiar with a notion of health huts as dwellings, it is curious that there are not many more uses.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:14, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I got the impression she meant some kind of health fad, like monkey glands and radium. Fresh air was something of a cure-all for a time. DuncanHill (talk) 17:15, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

Me too; perhaps what we would call a gym, for whirling Indian clubs and the like. I think Charles Darwin used a hut in his garden at Downe, for drenching himself with freezing water and other tactics to cure his lassitude and excessive flatulence. Johnbod (talk) 17:45, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

Not specifically relevant, but along the same lines, the Naturist movement in England got going in the 1920s. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.1905} ~2025-31359-08 (talk) 04:22, 10 December 2025 (UTC)

It seems to refer to a kind of sanatorium or spa, but those typically heavily emphasized various water treatments (balneotherapy), leaving their victims patients anything but dirty or unkempt. Matt Deres (talk) 19:04, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

December 9

King's Birthday in Western Australia

King's Official Birthday#Australia notes that the King's Birthday has no fixed date in WA, being determined annually by a proclamation by the Governor. How far ahead of time is the proclamation typically made, and how easy is it to predict the date beforehand if you know the dates of school terms and the Perth Royal Show? I assume it's awkward for holidaymakers, calendar manufacturers, and the like, unless governments' date choices tend to be predictable; if they aren't, I can imagine allegations of corruption along the lines of Julian calendar#Motivation, second paragraph, but that seems very unlikely for a country like Australia. Nyttend (talk) 02:33, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

The proclamation for the 2026 and 2027 occurrences of the "Celebration Day for the Anniversary of the Birthday of the Reigning Sovereign" was made in May 2024.[8] Hack (talk) 06:19, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

How was Carver related to Wellington?

Our article Michael Carver says "Carver's mother was related to Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington", citing , which says his mother was "proud of her distant connections with the family of the Duke of Wellington". She was born Winifred Anne Gabrielle Wellesley, the daughter of Courtenay Wellesley, of Dallas, Texas, one of the "ex-patriot [sic] employees of a British company called Texas Land & Mortgage". Our article Thomas Bayley Potter says that "Texas Land & Mortgage, a Scottish company managed by the Irish Courtenay Wellesley". The Guardian obituary of Lord Carver says he was descended from the Duke of Wellington through his mother. So, just what was, and how distant, the connexion? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 16:59, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

I don't know the answer, but I do know a much more interesting connection: between Wellington and his Waterloo nemesis Napoleon.

• Napoleon’s brother's first wife's brother's widow's second husband's brother was none other than Wellington (details available by subscription). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:49, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

In a comment on a blog post^[9] I found this:

Courtenay Edward Wellesley was born in 1850, the son of Edward Wellesley, an army officer who died in the Crimea War. Major Wellesley was the second son of Richard Wellesley, the illegitimate son of the Marquis Wellesley, the elder brother of the first Duke of Wellington. There is a great deal of information on Courtney Wellesey's father and immediate relations in 'Letters of a Victorian army officer: Edward Wellesley 1840-1854' edited by Michael Carver, in fact Field Marshall Lord Carver, a grandson through Edward Courtenay Wellesley's second marriage to a lady called Nora Scovell.

 ​‑‑Lambiam 21:24, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

@Lambiam: Thank you, The Guardian shewing its usual eye for detail then! @JackofOz:, that would make an even better pub quiz question than the only first-class cricketer to have won a Nobel Prize! DuncanHill (talk) 00:15, 10 December 2025 (UTC)

December 10

Who was Blackwood's "M. S.-K."

Pan's Garden by Algernon Blackwood is dedicated "To M. S.-K. who made with me these little paths across Pan's tangled garden". I can't see anyone in our article on Blackwood with those initials. Do we know who it was? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 17:28, 10 December 2025 (UTC)

Apparently this, like several others of Blackwood's books, was dedicated to Maya Stuart-King, a married lady with whom he was "romantically involved". More details on her colourful life can be found here (p. 82). --Antiquary (talk) 18:09, 10 December 2025 (UTC)

Many thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 21:29, 12 December 2025 (UTC)

Perception of Music

Is experiencing music generally considered an example of qualia? I have no idea how others perceive anything from before Bach to after Rosalia, but whenever I am listening to complex compositions, I see (not at all clearly) some biomorph 3D geometric forms which are shape-shifting, subject to some symphonic / instrumental metamorphosis. Remotely similar to an animated Frank Gehry building floating in the sky, bubbling and pulsating.

Googling gives some prolix psychological papers, but I find no clear definitions to what entails auditory perception. Neither am I sure if my spatial perception actually exists or is just a bit of imaginative hallucination; I do extensive work in 3D modelling and have great interest in the visual arts, from painting to architecture to cinematography, so I am possibly just "transcribing" my cerebral emotive (?) response to a language I am familiar with.

Thanks to anybody responding to this query. Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:13, 10 December 2025 (UTC)

Some information in synesthesia and a website called The Synesthesia Tree. Alansplodge (talk) 20:11, 10 December 2025 (UTC)

Because of the "other minds problem", we cannot know whether anyone other than ourselves has a subjective, conscious experience – whatever that may mean. The philosophers who write about qualia rarely (or perhaps never) mention the experiencing of, specifically, music, as a quale. But timbre is often described as "colour", which in its visual sense is the poster child of the qualia posse, and few people will disagree with the statement that experiencing music can be a subjective conscious experience, one that is very different for music by one's favorite artist or composer than for some other compositions, which one may even strongly dislike. As such it fits the definition.

Your synesthetic experience, which I think is fairly rare in this specific form, is unrelated to the initial question. (It may be related to what the The Synesthesia Tree labels as "timbre–shape".) It seems to me that it wouldn't qualify as an emotive response. For most people, auditory perception has no visual aspect, and any spatial aspect is restricted to where the sound is coming from, relative to the subject.  ​‑‑Lambiam 01:20, 11 December 2025 (UTC)

There are people whose perception of music includes visions of colours, in a fairly consistent way – see Chromesthesia. At least two active music reviewers on YouTube mention this, and it adds to their appreciation and understanding of the relationships of keys and harmonies in a piece. The French composer Olivier Messiaen used his synesthesic mental colour perceptions as part of his composing technique and mentioned the colours in his written scores, and the Russian Alexander Scriabin constructed a colour-light accompaniment to his symphony Prometheus.

Your experience seems along the same lines, and I suspect is not particularly uncommon, but simply something that people do not often talk about. I myself (to be anecdotal) do not have marked synesthesia, but certain types of music evoke mental images to me, typically of natural landscapes, and especially when I am drowsy. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2025-31359-08 (talk) 06:53, 11 December 2025 (UTC)

I suspect you mean Rosalía. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:09, 12 December 2025 (UTC)

Oops and Thank you! Sorry, I did not verify the link when typing... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:55, 12 December 2025 (UTC)

@Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM: I'm fairly sure that synaesthesia applies in this case to composers like Messiaen, Scriabin and Rachmaninoff, who associated musical keys with specific colours; eg B flat major = purple. Sadly, they all had different conceptions of which keys matched which hue. Do you visualise consistent geometric forms, e.g. according to the key such as E flat major vs C sharp minor, type of music eg violin concerto vs piano concerto, or late romantic symphony vs lute sonata? Can you hold them in mind, or do they inavariably morph into some other shape? MinorProphet (talk) 14:50, 16 December 2025 (UTC)

December 11

publicly traded company

There's a company XYZ traded on NASDAQ whose stock went down the toilet over the past couple of years. It's now a penny stock if I'm using the term correctly. Its main product is basically crap and nobody buys it, competitors' stuff is better and cheaper, and now the product itself might be dangerous enough (design defect) to warrant a recall that the company probably can't afford. On the other hand, the company is making noise about some new dubious deals in the works. Anyway I tend to think that all things considered, the company is worth less than zero and is headed for bankruptcy. It does have some nice retail channel deals that might be useful if the product was more attractive. Current revenues maybe a few million US$ a year, down from maybe 10x that a few years ago, but I haven't checked the numbers so these are just guesses.

That said, there are lots of other, more competent companies operating in the sector, that are privately held. I know sometimes a crappy publicly traded company will get acquired by a privately held one as kind of a backdoor IPO. The private company "merges" with the public one and boom, it's on the exchange without going through the whole SEC process.

Any idea of the value of a NASDAQ listing as a company asset for such purposes? I'm not seriously looking for investment advice (I'm too broke), but am just trying to size up the picture. Thanks. ~2025-39770-07 (talk) 00:02, 11 December 2025 (UTC)

See Backdoor listing. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 19:36, 11 December 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! That's exactly what I was describing. I guess I can look up examples. ~2025-40343-80 (talk) 07:17, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

December 12

Terms and conditions written in all caps

In the US, it seems to be common that privacy policies, disclaimers, terms & condition and similar documents contain sections written entirely in uppercase (or occasionally, the whole document is written in uppercase). Why is this the case? It makes it rather difficult to read and I don't see how it would make a legal difference to use normal capitalisation. This practice does not seem common in other countries, even those with similar legal systems. ~2025-40120-30 (talk) 01:13, 12 December 2025 (UTC)

"Words, phrases, and entire sections of legal agreements are often capitalized to make them more conspicuous than the rest of the text around them. This tried-and-true practice has been around for ages and is still widely used today because it's a simple and effective way to make important content stand out." privacypolicies.com

A far cry from the TV ads (e.g. about analgesics, etc) that have equally important information at the bottom but in multiple sentences in very tiny print, which is displayed for about a second. How this satisfies some legal obligation to adequately warn consumers is beyond me. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:20, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

Deciphering the all-caps final section and rendering it in understandable language tends to result in:

We have never claimed, do not claim and will never claim that this product is suitable for any use, and cannot accept responsibility for the damage caused by its use,

 ​‑‑Lambiam 18:01, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

I keep seeing these Big Pharma TV ads for drugs claiming to cure some non-fatal medical condition or other with a long list of no-doubt legally mandated disclaimers, including possible more serious consequences of usage, up to and including death (though that would "cure" one). Clarityfiend (talk) 22:58, 15 December 2025 (UTC)

It all has to do with conspicuousness. Under UCC § 1-201(b)(10), a term is "conspicuous" if a reasonable person ought to have noticed it. "Conspicuous terms include the following: (A) a heading in capitals equal to or greater in size than the surrounding text, or in contrasting type, font, or color to the surrounding text of the same or lesser size..." Certain clauses in contracts only count if they are conspicuous. For example, to disclaim the implied warranty of merchantability, UCC requires the disclaimer be conspicuous; hence, THIS PRODUCT IS SOLD AS IS. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 04:19, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

Aka YOU CAN"T SUE US. NYAAH, NYAAH, NYAAH, NYAAH, NYAAH! Clarityfiend (talk) 23:00, 15 December 2025 (UTC)

Kinda. But (at least in US law) there is an implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing that all the bold face all caps you can dream of won't eliminate. Signed, last-week 1L. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 03:35, 16 December 2025 (UTC)

London bus in 'The Untouchables'?

What model of London bus is seen in the film The Untouchables? (It's also visible in the first 15 seconds of the trailer on IMDb.)

When was that model introduced? The film is set in 1930. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:59, 12 December 2025 (UTC)

According to IMCDB it's an AEC Regent III RT (1939), or perhaps a BMMO D7 "mauled about a bit". It's not a great angle (in the trailer), and of course you could build any body you wanted onto a chassis. The one in the trailer has the rear platform on the left, so built for an driving on the left. DuncanHill (talk) 21:12, 12 December 2025 (UTC)

Since the movie is set in Chicago, including the scene in the trailer, that's not a "London bus" unless it was imported from there. Double-decker buses are used for sightseeing in Chicago today, but I don't know if that was true in 1930. --~2025-40985-10 (talk) 20:26, 17 December 2025 (UTC)

A quick look at newspapers.com (pay site) indicates Chicago had double decker buses by the 1920s. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:32, 17 December 2025 (UTC)

The relevant date in 1987, which is when the film was made. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:37, 17 December 2025 (UTC)

Are you trying to determine whether the bus used in the film is an anachronism? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:04, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

December 13

Saints in hell, per Dante

In Inferno, which saints appear in torment? (Looking for those considered saints by the Catholic Church in the 21st century.) I'm well aware of Pope St Celestine V likely being the one who made the great refusal, but I don't know if there are others, and Google searches are full of irrelevancies. Nyttend (talk) 01:39, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

Nyttend I couldn't find a secondary source that gives a concise list, but Longfellow's verse translation is here should you wish to research it yourself. Alansplodge (talk) 15:45, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

Liability apportionment

Not seeking advice, but trying to understand some drama unfolding on the interweb.

Let's say a house burns down. Luckily no one is injured, but there is $500K of damage. The homeowner suspects a certain appliance of causing the fire. Claims adjuster or other investigator carefully inspects the debris and makes official report saying "cause of the fire can't be established with certainty, but our best estimate is that there's 20% chance that it was caused by short circuit resulting from a design defect in appliance X". Lawyers get involved.

Does that tend to result in the appliance manufacturer getting apportioned 20% of the liability? Or does the manufacturer say "our appliance is perfectly safe, even the mean mean investigator says we probably had nothing to do with it" and not get any responsibility at all?

What if (very simplified situation) there are 100 fires, differing in enough detail that they can be considered independent events, but each investigator report says about the same thing (20% chance that appliance X started the fire)? If the reports are right, expectation is that 20 of the 100 fires were started by the appliance, though we don't know which 20. Manufacturer might dispute the number 20, but if they say it's 0 they are almost surely talking nonsense.

What happens then?

Thanks. ~2025-40343-80 (talk) 06:59, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure there are no rules on the book (meaning legislative statutes) regulating this in detail in any jurisdiction. Answers can only be based on existing jurisprudence from similar cases that have been adjudicated in the past. This will differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Also, I'm not familiar with fire investigation reports, but I'd be somewhat surprised if they assign numerical percentage values to causes that cannot be ruled out.

Suspending disbelief, it is entirely plausible that the appliance manufacturer will deny any alleged liability, also in a limited apportionment. Why should they? It only makes them more vulnerable in similar cases. They may instead blame faulty installation, or misuse. Only when unequivocally proved to be the cause, or substantially more evidence comes to light of their appliance being so dangerous as to create liability, can one expect them to react, which may involve a very costly recall.

Almost every major accident or disaster has several contributing causes. A failing sensor had not been serviced in time, the backup unit was under repair and out of order, the emergency shut-off valve was improperly installed and got stuck, ..., you get the picture. It is possible that the origin-and-cause part of a fire investigation identifies, with certainty, several causes that conspired to cause the damage. It is then meaningless to assign chances; each certainly contributed, so each can be stated as a contributing cause with "100% chance". But, obviously, not all can lead to 100% liability. The situation will differ from case to case, and may need to be settled in court.  ​‑‑Lambiam 12:42, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

Under which jurisdiction? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:13, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

Thanks both. The company is based in Nevada, US, but sells stuff all over the US and to some extent worldwide, so potentially lots of cross-jurisdictional disputes. I'm just watching the drama from the outside so I'll see what happens. (Popcorn emoji here). ~2025-40343-80 (talk) 07:15, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

From my dimly remembered past life in the London insurance market, the principle here is called apportionment. Alansplodge (talk) 15:39, 16 December 2025 (UTC)

William F. Northend (1887-1968), English artist and printer

Can anyone add anything about (Q137380497) to the scant information and thin sources I have gathered on Wikidata? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:12, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

Illustrated editions of the works of William Morris in English : a descriptive bibliography, p 29, has some biographical detail. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 18:01, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

Great find, thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:47, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

He who thinks of Himachal...

In , Frank Smythe quotes "the Hindu scribe" who wrote:

He who thinks of Himachal [the Himalayan snows], though he should not behold him, is greater than he who performs all worship in Kashi [Benares]. And he who thinks on Himachal shall have pardon for all sins; and all things that die on Himachal, and all things that in dying think of his snows, are freed from sin. In a hundred ages of the Gods I could not tell thee of the glories of Himachal, where Siva lived and where the Ganges fails from the foot of Vishnu like the slender thread of a lotus flower.

I would be interested to know the source that Smythe was quoting. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 17:41, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

Parabola : Magazine of Myth and Tradition Vol. XIII, No. 4: November, 1988 Issue on THE MOUNTAIN credits it: "From the Manasakhanda of the Skanda Purana". Likewise The Himalayan Gazetteer vVol II Part I. There are many who quote it, but few who give credit. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 18:11, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

Many thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 23:37, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

The Madonna on the Dent du Geant

There is a metal statue of a Madonna on the Dent du Geant. Do we know who put it there and when? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 23:36, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

I haven't found a sculptor, but successive editions of Baedeker date it 1904.^[10] --Antiquary (talk) 11:21, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

There is a wide-ranging discussion on UKClimbing.com that suggests there are many such statues, some dating back centuries. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 13:27, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

The statue was reportedly originally placed there by members of the Società delle Guide Alpine di Courmayeur on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the proclamation in 1854 of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Hit by lightning in 1958, it broke loose and toppled down. It was retrieved and placed in the Museo Alpino di Courmayeur, from which it was moved in 2001 to the Notre Dame de Guérison sanctuary, where it (presumably) remains to this day. A wooden statue was put on the same summit of the Dent du Géant, sculpted by local artist Mario Stuffer, but in just a few days it too was struck by lightning. There are references to an aluminium version, according to some the original, according to others a much later temporary replacement. Another source refers to le precedenti in legio d'aluminio, the predecessors (plural!) in aluminium alloy.^[11] According to the same source, a new bronze statue, a faithful reproduction (presumably of the original), replaced the damaged (aluminium) statue in 2010. The name of the original sculptor is not mentioned in any of multiple sources and may have been lost.  ​‑‑Lambiam 16:28, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

December 16

'Gretorne'(?) pottery overstamp

What is the overstamp on this pottery mark? It looks like "Gretorne", but that finds no relevant Google hits. Neither does "Geryorne". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:44, 16 December 2025 (UTC)

Bretonne - Britany perhaps? Johnbod (talk) 18:49, 16 December 2025 (UTC)

The following site has an extensive, searchable listing of Grindley patterns.

https://www.replacements.com/china-grindley/b/001-800542

"Creampetal" appears to be a general description for a type of pottery with various patterns. I can't see a match for the word in question but there are other search options (colour, trim, style) to try if you have other images of the piece. Dalliance (talk) 19:57, 16 December 2025 (UTC)

Bretoine is a rare French surname,^[12] like the name Bretaine^[13] presumably one of many variant spellings of Old French Bretaigne, which also occurs as a surname.^[14]  ​‑‑Lambiam 19:58, 16 December 2025 (UTC)

To be clear "Bretonne" is the adjectival form of Bretagne = Britany, used in French in all sorts of contexts. I'm fairly sure this is the correct reading. Johnbod (talk) 00:55, 17 December 2025 (UTC)

We don't seem to have an article on Breton ware, but it a style of pottery, not necessarily made in Brittany, like this for example. Alansplodge (talk) 17:43, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

The overstamp looks like the retailer's mark, not the potter's. DuncanHill (talk) 19:59, 16 December 2025 (UTC)

Transatlantic phone call

International call is sorely lacking in historical info and History of the telephone mentions only that the first transatlantic call was from the US to the UK in 1927.

I'm wondering how big a deal it was to do that in, say, 1947, particularly from the UK to the eastern US. Would it be extravagant to make such a call (say 3 minutes long) for non-momentous personal or business reasons? How much would it cost? What would you have to do to set it up with international phone operators or whatever? Was cable telegraphy a lot cheaper? Was paper mail the ordinary way to communicate? I'm presuming sea mail took forever just like now, but air mail might be a few days. Thanks. ~2025-40867-45 (talk) 23:33, 16 December 2025 (UTC)

The first transatlantic telephone call – by radio, not wire – took place January 7, 1927, between AT&T president Walter S. Gifford and Sir Evelyn P. Murray, head of the British General Post Office.

In 1930, the New York-London call was reduced from $45 to $30 for the first three minutes. On the basis of personal income, that’s roughly from $845 to $564 in 2024, although there are very wide variations in computing prices then and now.

Only at the end of the 20th century was it possible to dial directly across the ocean; prior to that , one called the international operator, and probably had to wait several minutes or even an hour to be called back with a connection to the other end. Cables (telegraphs), telexes, and telephone telegrams (call and dictate a message, which would be delivered in print to the other end, perhaps the same day) were much cheaper.

Postal (snail) mail might take a week, or a month, or longer, to cross the ocean. Domestic deliveries in the US might be possible on the same day, where there were two deliveries per day and more capacity than demand.DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 01:31, 17 December 2025 (UTC)

When I was a child in the early 1960s my father would call to us in London from the US if he was away for several days. It was a big deal and the calls kept pretty brief - rather like later astronaut family calls. Don't know what the actual cost was. When he was home though he sometimes had long calls from corporate clients in the US. I think air mail letters only took a few days then - less than a week. Johnbod (talk) 02:42, 17 December 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, yeah, that 1930 price tells me something, but I'm guessing there were developments between then and post-WW2. Meanwhile, Transatlantic communications cable says the first such telephone cable was laid in the 1950s, so 1947 would still have been radio. Transatlantic telegraph cables went back to the 1850's and the linked article about them is pretty interesting. ~2025-40867-45 (talk) 03:04, 17 December 2025 (UTC)

See also Telstar Chuntuk (talk) 13:33, 17 December 2025 (UTC)

Thanks again everyone, yeah good point about Telstar, though it was for TV and it came later than the transatlantic phone cable. Johnbod, I also have to wonder if the 1950s-era installation of the phone cable decreased costs of phone calls enough that they were much more affordable in the 1960s than before the cable went in. I also wonder what the technology and cost of telegraphy (maybe teleprinters by then) was like in the 1930s and later. Maybe I'll try to research it. I do remember aerograms existing not all that long ago. ~2025-41519-59 (talk) 10:30, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

References

December 18

Long shot:- Location identifications.

1. A Hydro station, halfway up an upland valley (possibly pine forested), victorian gothic style architecture

2. Isolate industrial site/quarry, served by railway line (diselised). Surronding scenery suggests moorland, but site is very isolate with no other settlement apparent.

3. Fenland or otherwise flat town, containing a high street frontage linking to a musuem of toy theatre's ( I am suspecting somewhere in the Fens, given the notable absence of any hills.)

4. Urban railway station (likely London Suburban or Southern Region), Platforms are on a bridge over the main road, which descends down hill from the station.

5. River inlet valley, reached by a very steeply descending road. possibly a railway valley.

6. Cathedral or university city, Cathedral sits adjacent to the main road and bus route.

These locations could be historical and thus difficult to trace. If they are misrecalled film locations then it may be impossible to trace them.

Regionally I think these are the United Kingdom, or Northern European, However. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:34, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

Can you clarify please. Are these places you have been to but can't recall where and are describing? Are they photographs / postcards you have / have seen (do you still have them)? Shots in a movie / video you have watched? Memories from a dream? Do you believe them to be factual places or fictional places? Do you "have" any of these images. -- SGBailey (talk) 12:27, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

These are recalled from memory, no extant media, although I'm unclear if these are locations I actually visitied. I thus suspect these are memory recall from image media rather than visited locations. Feel free to ignore this request if in the impossible or too vauge category.

No2. is almost certainly a recall from filmed footage, the loco and rolling stock recalled alongside the scenery being an older type not in current United Kingdom use, (dating to before the Class 66/67 era, and most likely a Class 37), It was hauling tanker cars.

No.3 - The website of the Toy Theatre Trust lists public toy theatre collections in Birmingham, Derby, York, Edinburgh and London x5.

https://toytheatres.wordpress.com/category/public-toy-theatre-collections

Dalliance (talk) 17:40, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

No. 6 would probably describe most of the cities in List of cathedrals in the United Kingdom. Next to a main road and a bus route? You're going to have to give us more than that. Chuntuk (talk) 12:22, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

As in the main road (paved) is immediately outside the cathedral wall, with minimal pavement or no pavement at all. Beyond the Cathedral is an open path of mantianed open grass. (Still not enough to be definitive I feel, sorry). ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:09, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

Coat of Arms

Walter Manny, 1st Baron Manny includes a coat of arms for him. The surround includes the phrase "Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense". However some of the words are obscured by the shield. Is that (a) correct and (b) normal? -- SGBailey (talk) 12:23, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

See Honi soit qui mal y pense and the coats of arms on commons. Walter's looks quite normal. --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:40, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

He was a Knight of the Garter - the heralds wouldn't have allowed this otherwise. Johnbod (talk) 13:42, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

Having the motto disappear behind other elements of the coat of arms appears to be heradically acceptable, as witness the front of the UK passport in this BBC article -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 16:58, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

In heraldry, the blazon is king. The emblazon is an artist's impression of the blazon.
Sleigh (talk) 20:55, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

Unfortunately for general comprehension, emblazon is a redirect to blazon, but it is not well explained (still less cited) within that article. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 22:02, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

British values

I came across the term British values for the first time yesterday and had no idea what it meant. Looking at a couple of quizzes was just confusing although after a few questions I could answer the multiple choice correctly most of the time. It seems to me that "British values" isn't a real "thing" but is something Government would like to be such. I initially thought it meant "What things make you typically British?" which gets answers like "Standing in an orderly queue", "Eating fish and chips", "Having a quirky sense of humour", etc. Is "British values" a government inspired "thing" and is it aimed at non-British people? -- SGBailey (talk) 12:56, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

No, and yes. --Viennese Waltz 13:26, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

Like equivalents from other countries, it is a politician's and jornalist's phrase whose meaning depends entirely on the person using it. Johnbod (talk) 13:33, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

Those seeking British citizenship are required to pass the "Life in the United Kingdom test", which icludes "the values and principles of the UK", which are outlined in this handbook.

I suspect that you might get a difference of opinion about British values between a trade unionist and a Reform Party flag-waver, but hopefully there's enough common ground to keep this funny old country on the road to progress. Alansplodge (talk) 17:32, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

Following the recent mass shooting at Bondi here in Australia, there been a lot of calls, particularly from the political right, for our immigration program to be restricted to only those people who already have Australian values. Nobody can explicitly define those values. To me it seems it often seems to mean not being Muslim. In an earlier period when this was a popular demand, former Prime Minister John Howard spoke of this a lot and seemed to think that knowing Don Bradman's batting average was an important Australian value. I wish you luck coming up with a definition for Britain. HiLo48 (talk) 22:46, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

So they want to reject people like Ahmed al-Ahmed? Bigoted idiots are the same the world over (or under). Clarityfiend (talk) 01:01, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

Yes to both your points there. HiLo48 (talk) 01:58, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

Abbey (artist, fl. 1925)

Cover of the Christmas edition (20th Dec 1925 - 26th Dec 1925) of Radio Times magazine

Who is the artist of the cover of this Christmas edition of Radio Times? The signature looks like "Abbey". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:25, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

It could be Joseph Abbey, d. 1954, though the signature seems different. Or his brother Salomon van Abbé (d 1955). Johnbod (talk) 13:40, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. The latter article says, uncited, "He also painted the front covers for the Christmas Number of the Radio Times in 1924 and 1925." Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:45, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

See also Artists' and illustrators' signatures. DuncanHill (talk) 17:12, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

Useful site (and a match for Salomon), thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:51, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

St Paul's railings

St Paul's Cathedral#Fencing says: The original fencing, designed by Wren, was dismantled in the 1870s. The surveyor for the government of Toronto had it shipped to Toronto, where it has since adorned High Park. The reference is a dead link.

However, Historic England says the existing railings (presumably the fencing referred to above) as "original 1714" and Grade I listed. [15]

So which is right, or were there two different fences? Alansplodge (talk) 18:06, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

Here is a reference for the fencing which is now in Toronto: https://highparknature.org/article/human-history-year-by-year/#The_Story_of_a_Fence ~2025-41620-41 (talk) 21:40, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

The link in ref [128], "Archived from the original on 10 February 2020", works for me.  ​‑‑Lambiam 22:06, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. So which are the real railings? The Toronto ones seem rather modest compared to the railings in situ today. Alansplodge (talk) 23:05, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

Okay, problem solved:

Francis Penrose, Surveyor from 1852 to 1897. His significant work is reviewed here... [he] radically changed the configuration of the Wren railings by lowering them and removing the section of railings round the west end, replacing them with the present row of bollards. [16]

Thanks all. Alansplodge (talk) 23:28, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

Translating heraldry terms: grommelees and spirty

Hello. Have come across a description of a heraldic device and have not managed to find explanations for all of the terms. It goes:

"three oreilles couped, for Harker; two siskins proper, for Siskin; seven abeilles grommelees or, for Colway; and three alms spirty, for Mynd."

I understand the floating ears and the finches in their natural colours, and the golden bees. But I can't make sense of "grommelees" as a visual term, can only guess what alms are supposed to look like, and can't find "spirty" anywhere. Can any of you find these terms anywhere? Thanks! ~2025-41620-41 (talk) 21:36, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

grommeler is an existing French verb, but its meaning, "to grumble", "to mutter", is not an action one would subject bees to, whether real or heraldic. In the context a sense such as "hatched in wavy lines" would make sense. The original text has a comma between the words "abeilles" and "grommelees",^[17] but this does not make it any less of a puzzle. There is an exiting word "spirity", which however also does not appear to have a specific visual sense.  ​‑‑Lambiam 22:31, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

"Bois grumeleux" is (or was in the 17th century) rough, knotty wood, according to A dictionary of barbarous French (1679). Not much help in this case though.

But perhaps "abeilles grommelees" means "buzzing bees", i.e. bees in flight rather than resting? Alansplodge (talk) 23:22, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

From Papworth's Ordinary, bees in flight are in English heraldry usually described as 'volant', and Boutell's Heraldry confirms that they are usually so depicted and described.

'Spirt' (per the OED) is an old dialectical variant of 'sprout' (as in vegetation), and I wondered if 'alms' might be a similar variant of 'elms', thus 'alms spirty' = 'sprouting elms', but I can find no corroboration for alms = elms. I will be fascinated to see if anybody can solve these. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2025-31359-08 (talk) 04:21, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

Not getting much further... Dictionnaire classique universel français, historique, biographique, mythologique, géographique, et étymologique of 1870 gives this definition for Grommeler (p. 358 [pdf 376]): "vn. murmurer, se plaindre entre les dents (c. amonceler)" [18]. Amonceler (p. 28 [38]): "mettre en monceau, entasser" [19] and Monceau (p. 497 [515]) : "sm. tas, amas fait en forme de petit mont." [20] I haven't worked out quite how grommeler is associated with amonceler, but the sense might conceivably indicate seven golden bees heaped or piled up: but that's going look a bit untidy, heraldically speaking. This page also only gives a muttering-type definition. Petit Larousse 1905 suggests etymology from "anc. allem. grummeln", but again only German grumbling from Wiktionary.

While a search for 'oreilles' ends up at Orle (heraldry), the abysmal google AI thing suggests "oreilles" in French blazons might also describe something ear-shaped or be part of a canting device" : and indeed the device (I imagine something like this [21]) is a pun on Kay Harker's name (Harker, hearken, hear.) But couped leads to Cross: Couped. How do you cut off the ends of an ear? I wondered if the Colways' bees get similar punning treatment. But the name Colway is only mentioned twice further in the book, and then only in passing with no obvious explanation. [22] Anyway, the passage is part of a dream sequence. The rest of the book deals with secret codes and hidden meanings, so was Masefield being entirely serious? MinorProphet (talk) 04:14, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

'Couped' is used to denote a part of the body (usually an animal's head) cut off (in that case at the neck) in a straight line, rather than torn off raggedly, for which 'erased' applies. Thus 'oreilles couped' would be appropriate for ears cleanly cut off.

In your original transcription of "seven abeilles grommelees or" you omitted a comma after abeilles, so evidently grommelees are some feature of a bee (rather than the bees overall) that in this case are tinctured or (rather than, say, argent), but we are no closer to what 'gromilees' are. I suspect that with these and the 'alms spirty' Masefield is denoting a descent into dream non-rationality. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195}~2025-31359-08 (talk) 04:51, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

The visual particulars of the arms described play no role in the plot of this children's fantasy novel. The most plausible explanation appears to be that the author just made up some fancy heraldry terms as merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to the fantastic narrative.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:03, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

I doubt he would be so casual. In the 1920s a lot more people (including children) were moderately conversant with heraldry and took it seriously, and Masefield was a well-known poet and novelist who would be appointed Poet Laureate only three years after the book was published (when he was aged 49), so was something of an establishment figure. Whatever his intent in writing this passage, it would be deliberate and considered. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2025-31359-08 (talk) 13:16, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

Furthermore, deconstructing the phrase unto death, 'grommelees' or even 'grommelées' is the plural past participle of 'grommeler', to mutter or grumble. But in the Dictionnaire classique the definition includes "vn." = 'verbe non-transitif', nontranstive verb. So theoretically you can't 'grumble someone' or something as an object, so what even are "seven abeilles, grommelees or"? Seven grumbled [or muttered, or (transf.) heaped-up] golden bees? Reading the book last night, I was aware of Masefield briefly mentioning a few somewhat unusual Latin names of some plants, probably in the same dream-world. Sadly I didn't look them up at the time, so I'm going to have to run through the whole thing again to see if they are even real, and/or humorously intended. There's probably an article in an obscure literary journal in there somewhere, The influence of heraldic canting wit on John Masefield's oeuvre. MinorProphet (talk) 13:36, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

The whole phrase "three oreilles couped, for Harker; two siskins proper, for Siskin; seven abeilles, grommelees or, for Colway; and three alms spirty, for Mynd." reminds me somewhow of Finnegan's Wake: " But, the monthage stick in the melmelode jawr, I am (twintomine) all thees thing. Up tighty in the front, down again on the loose, drim and drumming on her back and a pop from her whistle. What is that, O holytroopers? Isot givin yoe?" (Publishing began in instalments in 1927, same year as The Midnight Folk currently under discussion). MinorProphet (talk) 15:07, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

Per the OED, an oreille is "a representation of a pillow or cushion used as a heraldic charge". I can't make any sense of "abeilles grommelees" or "alms spirty" however, and suspect that Lambiam and MinorProphet are correct in identifying them as pseudo-heraldic nonsense terms. Zacwill (talk) 15:44, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

As far as Latin plants names go, Masfield refers to " laurustinus", (viburnum tinus) and "giant heraclea", which is giant hogweed; no leg-pulling there. MinorProphet (talk) 00:56, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

December 19

Are NYU and Whitman College need-blind

My interest was recently piqued by the two entries that lack citations under Need-blind admission#Need-blind for resident applicants: NYU and Whitman. I had heard of NYU being need-blind and didn't question this at first, but now I can't find any current, official sources for either of the two that aren't brochures from 2017 or self-published websites. Does anyone know a source that says these institutions are need-blind or not? Aaron Liu (talk) 02:38, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

It's not an area I'm familiar with, but the respective websites suggest that each institution offers needs-based aid. Is this the same as being need-blind? I don't know.

https://www.whitman.edu/admission-and-aid/financial-aid-and-costs/need-based-aid

https://www.nyu.edu/admissions/financial-aid-and-scholarships/applying-as-a-prospective-undergraduate-student.html

Dalliance (talk) 20:08, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

It's not; as the article I linked explained, need-based aid means they'll give students they admit money based on how much they need, and need-blind means they won't refuse to admit a student because of how much they need. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:28, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

Experimental Post:

Rationale: Over on Wikiversity I posed an idea for 'time-travelling' talk page idea, where a user could post a question, and get a 'period' reply appropriate for an academic of the era.

So I am going to make an experimental posting here, Feel free to respond in kind if you wish, (but in keeping with the reference desk, remember to use appropriate use of 'authorities' (WP:RS. era appropriate even better )

This following is addressed to the 1890's equivalent of the Wikipedia Reference Desk, (but if Wikipedians of other eras want to respond as well, I have no objections, provided the nominal date you are responding from is included. :)

"Dear Sirs, As we rapidly approach the season of festivities, it would be appreciated if correspondents were able to provide, as decorum permits, some observations as to their peculiar regional celeberation of the season. It is felt that communication of these would diversify the knowledge of all those corresponding, furthering the goodwill and peace to all inherent at this time.

Sirs, I remain as ever your interested correspondent." ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:11, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

"...an academic of the error" certainly seems to fit the premise. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:00, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

Pray, be informed that it is not within the province of this establishment to serve as a laboratory for novel investigations. Respectfully, Ebenezer Scrooge, 12:34, 20 December 1895.